Reloading ammunition for the R51

[lklawson]

My R51 is a little bit of a picky eater lately.  I've been reloading with 115gr. coated HC from Missouri Bullet Company.  Seated to 1.08" COAL, per manufacturer spec, and stoked with 4.0gr of Titegroup.  These are accurate and feed reliably in several other guns but don't like to feed well in my R51.  Turns out it's a tight chamber.  I got a FCD for 9 and that helps if feed the chamber but the gun is still picky about eating these.  Dead trigger issues and nose up during feed issues.

I'm planning on using up the remaining 115gr. round nose HC coated for shooting in other guns and switching to the 125gr. cone HC coated.  Probably have to bump up the charge to the 4.2 or even 4.3 (max).

My R51 likes most factory new FMJ and seems to really like Critical Duty so I'm looking to get a load/shape similar to Critical Duty (without buying CD bullets!).



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[1911SHOOTER]

My R51 is a little bit of a picky eater lately.  I've been reloading with 115gr. coated HC from Missouri Bullet Company.  Seated to 1.08" COAL, per manufacturer spec, and stoked with 4.0gr of Titegroup.  These are accurate and feed reliably in several other guns but don't like to feed well in my R51.  Turns out it's a tight chamber.  I got a FCD for 9 and that helps if feed the chamber but the gun is still picky about eating these.  Dead trigger issues and nose up during feed issues.

I'm planning on using up the remaining 115gr. round nose HC coated for shooting in other guns and switching to the 125gr. cone HC coated.  Probably have to bump up the charge to the 4.2 or even 4.3 (max).

My R51 likes most factory new FMJ and seems to really like Critical Duty so I'm looking to get a load/shape similar to Critical Duty (without buying CD bullets!).



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Kirk,
     Although reloading is above my pay grade,  i wonder why our R51s change their appetites on ammo.  I have approximately 2000  rounds through my
R51, and it still eats whatever I feed it. including whatever is in the bottom of my range bag.  Could it be that the R51s do not like reloads?  But, like I say
that is above my pay grade.  Perhaps it is the difference between store bought and reload components? If I can find somebody who reloads 9MM
maybe I can buy some from them and check it out.  If I do, I will let you know.
Just a thought.
Blackie

[lklawson]

Kirk,
     Although reloading is above my pay grade,  i wonder why our R51s change their appetites on ammo.

I sent mine in for servicing.  The firing pin was jammed in the Pedersen Block.  I believe it was just a shaving of brass or copper which slipped in and jammed up the channel.  I could have drove out the pin myself and cleaned it but I figured, "it's still under warranty, might as well let a pro do it."  In retrospect I should have done it myself.  Hindsight.  To Remington's credit, they just flat out replaced the gun instead of fixing the obstruction.  I'd rather they fixed the obstruction, but whatever.

My new R51 is more of a picky eater that the former.  The new one likes factory ammo just fine, but kinda hates my reloads.  As I wrote, part of the issue is that it has a very tight chamber.  It's within SAAMI spec but I have to use a Factory Crimp Die (FCD) to ensure that the taper crimp is just right.  If I us a Seating Die to crimp, by the time I get it tight enough, it turns into almost a roll crimp, which sometimes won't allow the cartridge to head-space on the shoulder properly.  That's a bad thing in 9mm. 

A more experienced buddy is recommending that I gently polish the chamber.

I have approximately 2000  rounds through my
R51, and it still eats whatever I feed it. including whatever is in the bottom of my range bag.

I haven't tried steel cased ammo in this R51.  My reloads cost me about 70-75% of what factory new ammo does, even the cheap, crappy, ammo.  They run 100% in the other guns I've tried, even a Taurus PT111 G2.

Could it be that the R51s do not like reloads?

It could be.  But remanufactured ammo has to fall within certain specifications to be safe and usable.  The issue could just be "tolerance stacking" again.  That's what my last issue with the R51 and my reloads turned out to be.

To quote myself from a post I made on another forum describing this issue:
Spent more time out reloading last night and have concluded that, yes, the biggest factor is that the chamber is tight. It IS within spec, but it is on the tight end of the spec.

First thing I did was take two of the MBC cartridges and seat them down to 1.08. I had deliberately made sure that the crimp wasn't too hard when I made these so I thought I could get away with it for two of them. No problem seating them 0.02 deeper. I plunked both. In both cases, the still were stiff in the chamber and required the extractor to hand remove. I couldn't just tip the bbl up and have them drop free. But, at the same time, neither were in quite as tight, in my estimation. OK, so the MBC recommendation of seating depth is a part of it, but not the biggest.

Next I put my calipers on the case mouth of finished cartridges. In the MBC cartridges, all of them measured to .380. This is the SAAMI spec for case mouth*. Again, this is something that I deliberately chose when I set up the die because I didn't want to over-crimp. Next I measured the case mouth for the 3 other which do not stick, the Hornady Critical Duty, the PMC frangible, and my earlier reloads. All of them measured at .375-.376. Again, all of these plunk just fine in both the R51 bbl and the PT111 bbl.

So I started cranking down the crimp. Eventually, I got the crimped case mouth to .376 but I don't really like it. It's not a roll crimp, but it is starting to roll in. When I plunked the cartridges with the new crimp, they felt like they were headspacing on the mouth so I don't believe there's a danger. But I don't like it.



So my R51 chamber is within SAAMI spec but it's on the tight side.  My reloads were within SAAMI spec but they were at max diameter.  Add those together and you get tolerance stacking which causes in-chamber sticks and jams.

But, like I say that is above my pay grade.  Perhaps it is the difference between store bought and reload components?

Well, it is true that some bullets are sized slightly different.  They can range between .356 and .358.  This is usually a benefit to the reloader so that he can slug his barrel to get its exact inner diameter and buy the best fitting bullets for best accuracy.

If I can find somebody who reloads 9MM maybe I can buy some from them and check it out.  If I do, I will let you know.
Just a thought.
Blackie

In order to sell ammunition you built, either "factory new" or "reloaded," you need a license.  Don't go to a friend and offer to buy rebuilt ammo from him.  It's illegal unless he's licensed.  You could offer to buy his components (bullets, powder, primer, etc.) or work out a trade, but if he makes a "profit" and doesn't have a license, then it's illegal.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[1911SHOOTER]

Kirk,
     Although reloading is above my pay grade,  i wonder why our R51s change their appetites on ammo.

I sent mine in for servicing.  The firing pin was jammed in the Pedersen Block.  I believe it was just a shaving ob brass or copper which slipped in and jammed up the channel.  I could have drove out the pin myself and cleaned it but I figured, "it's still under warranty, might as well let a pro do it."  In retrospect I should have done it myself.  Hindsite.  To Remington's credit, they just flat out replaced the gun instead of fixing the obstruction.  I'd rather they fixed the obstruction, but whatever.

My new R51 is more of a picky eater that the former.  The new one likes factory ammo just fine, but kinda hates my reloads.  As I wrote, part of the issue is that it has a very tight chamber.  It's within SAAMI spec but I have to use a Factory Crimp Die (FCD) to ensure that the taper crimp is just right.  If I us a Seating Die to crimp, by the time I get it tight enough, it turns into almost a roll crimp, which sometimes won't allow the cartridge to head-space on the shoulder properly.  That's a bad thing in 9mm. 

A more experienced buddy is recommending that I gently polish the chamber.

I have approximately 2000  rounds through my
R51, and it still eats whatever I feed it. including whatever is in the bottom of my range bag.

I haven't tried steel cased ammo in this R51.  My reloads cost me about 70-75% of what factory new ammo does, even the cheap, crappy, ammo.  They run 100% in the other guns I've tried, even a Taurus PT111 G2.

Could it be that the R51s do not like reloads?

It could be.  But remanufactured ammo has to fall within certain specifications to be safe and usable.  The issue could just be "tolerance stacking" again.  That's what my last issue with the R51 and my reloads turned out to be.

To quote myself from a post I made on another forum describing this issue:
Spent more time out reloading last night and have concluded that, yes, the biggest factor is that the chamber is tight. It IS within spec, but it is on the tight end of the spec.

First thing I did was take two of the MBC cartridges and seat them down to 1.08. I had deliberately made sure that the crimp wasn't too hard when I made these so I thought I could get away with it for two of them. No problem seating them 0.02 deeper. I plunked both. In both cases, the still were stiff in the chamber and required the extractor to hand remove. I couldn't just tip the bbl up and have them drop free. But, at the same time, neither were in quite as tight, in my estimation. OK, so the MBC recommendation of seating depth is a part of it, but not the biggest.

Next I put my calipers on the case mouth of finished cartridges. In the MBC cartridges, all of them measured to .380. This is the SAAMI spec for case mouth*. Again, this is something that I deliberately chose when I set up the die because I didn't want to over-crimp. Next I measured the case mouth for the 3 other which do not stick, the Hornady Critical Duty, the PMC frangible, and my earlier reloads. All of them measured at .375-.376. Again, all of these plunk just fine in both the R51 bbl and the PT111 bbl.

So I started cranking down the crimp. Eventually, I got the crimped case mouth to .376 but I don't really like it. It's not a roll crimp, but it is starting to roll in. When I plunked the cartridges with the new crimp, they felt like they were headspacing on the mouth so I don't believe there's a danger. But I don't like it.



So my R51 chamber is within SAAMI spec but it's on the tight side.  My reloads were within SAAMI spec but they were at max diameter.  Add those together and you get tolerance stacking which causes in-chamber sticks and jams.

But, like I say that is above my pay grade.  Perhaps it is the difference between store bought and reload components?

Well, it is true that some bullets are sized slightly different.  They can range between .356 and .358.  This is usually a benefit to the reloader so that he can slug his barrel to get its exact inner diameter and buy the best fitting bullets for best accuracy.

If I can find somebody who reloads 9MM maybe I can buy some from them and check it out.  If I do, I will let you know.
Just a thought.
Blackie

In order to sell ammunition you built, either "factory new" or "reloaded," you need a license.  Don't go to a friend and offer to buy rebuilt ammo from him.  It's illegal unless he's licensed.  You could offer to buy his components (bullets, powder, primer, etc.) or work out a trade, but if he makes a "profit" and doesn't have a license, then it's illegal.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Kirk,
     Thanks for the reloading lesson, and for the advice.  I never knew that about reloading.  On a new note, have you thought about one of the barrels from Ebay?
Can't beat the price.  $20.99!
My gun still performs flawlessly since the mag mods.   I also empty the gun every morning and rack it 20 times,  maybe it helps it I don't know.   If it is not a
1911,  I am at a loss most times.   I have never been without a 1911 for the last 65 years or so.
Blackie

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-REMINGTON-R-51-FACTORY-STEEL-BARREL-9mm-LUGER-P-R51-GENUINE-OEM-/351113481081

[lklawson]

Kirk,
     Thanks for the reloading lesson, and for the advice.  I never knew that about reloading.  On a new note, have you thought about one of the barrels from Ebay?
Can't beat the price.  $20.99!
My gun still performs flawlessly since the mag mods.   I also empty the gun every morning and rack it 20 times,  maybe it helps it I don't know.   If it is not a
1911,  I am at a loss most times.   I have never been without a 1911 for the last 65 years or so.
Blackie

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-REMINGTON-R-51-FACTORY-STEEL-BARREL-9mm-LUGER-P-R51-GENUINE-OEM-/351113481081

I've been thinking about it. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[Texas-Mark]

FWIW, I pretty much only shoot my own reloads and have not had any problems. I have not tried any of the coated bullets yet, and I mainly use 115gr plated RN Berrys with 4.2gr of  Bullsey and a COAL of 1.135 and CCI primers. I also use a factory crimp die that sets the mouth at .377. They all plunk fine and feed fine. They average 1055fps with a ES of 43.

[Ryo]

I just thought to mention that I wouldn't buy reloads from someone you don't know/trust.  Too easy to get a accidental double load if a person wasn't paying attention.  Well that's my thought about it.

So is your R51 part of the 2nd generation?  I just got mine this week from Remington, and hoping I won't have issues with it.  Already I found my slide locks up and with some shaking it would let me finally rack it.  After playing with it I seems to be sliding okay.  Now have to take it to the range and test different ammo through it.

[lklawson]

FWIW, I pretty much only shoot my own reloads and have not had any problems. I have not tried any of the coated bullets yet, and I mainly use 115gr plated RN Berrys with 4.2gr of  Bullsey and a COAL of 1.135 and CCI primers. I also use a factory crimp die that sets the mouth at .377. They all plunk fine and feed fine. They average 1055fps with a ES of 43.

I'm planning on tinkering with one of the mags (so that I can have a control) and switching the bullet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

So is your R51 part of the 2nd generation?

Yes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[russc2542]

Interesting, mine had no problems with my reloads except the minimum charge ones, even then, no problems just felt every little movement of and in the slide because it was so slow. I'll try to remember to take some measurements tonight and see how they compare.

[lklawson]

Interesting, mine had no problems with my reloads except the minimum charge ones, even then, no problems just felt every little movement of and in the slide because it was so slow. I'll try to remember to take some measurements tonight and see how they compare.

I had a Gen 1 which had problems.  I sent it back to Rem and got a R1.  When the Gen 2 came out, I bought one.  As I wrote above (http://r51pistol.com/r51-general-discussion/reloading-ammunition-for-the-r51/msg1334/#msg1334), the firing pin started jamming.  It had to have been either a kinked firing pin spring or an obstruction in the firing pin channel (copper, brass, lead, carbon... take your pick).  In any case, I could have driven out the pin and cleared the obstruction myself but I figured that because it was still under warranty, it made more sense to let a pro do that.  Instead of just clearing the channel or replacing the Pedersen Block, Remington replaced the whole darn gun.  I wish they'd just cleared the channel but I can't blame them for replacing the gun.  <shrug>  The new one (my second Gen 2) is more picky about reloads than its predecessor.

I'm going to try different bullets, will likely tweak a Gen 2 magazine, and might polish the chamber.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[SCurmudgeon]

Remington replaced the whole darn gun.  I wish they'd just cleared the channel but I can't blame them for replacing the gun.

Why can't you blame them for replacing the whole gun?  I would!

Why would they do that?  Remington must believe it is cheaper for them to give you a whole new gun than figure out what was wrong with your old one.

You certainly maintain a good attitude regarding the R51.  If I send mine in and the new one they sent me back didn't work as good as the first (given the history of this particular firearm), I'd be very upset.  But then I don't have the knowledge or patience to tinker with parts or reloads until I obtain reliable performance.

It was also my hope that Remington would introduce unannounced manufacturing improvements that would increase out-of-the-box reliability.  That is to say, I hoped that newer built firearms would function better than the initial Mod 2's produced, but you appear to have an example to the contrary; unless of course you need to put another 200-1000 rounds through this one to break it in too.

[lklawson]

Remington replaced the whole darn gun.  I wish they'd just cleared the channel but I can't blame them for replacing the gun.

Why can't you blame them for replacing the whole gun?  I would!

Because I believe that it cost them more money to replace the gun.

Why would they do that?

To try to make me a happy customer as quickly as possible.   Giving me a new pistol gets a pistol into my hands far faster than repairing the former.  My happiness as a customer was apparently more important to them than the difference in cost between a new pistol and repairing the former.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[Ray R]

LEE is making a new 9mm die that is .002 to .003 inches tighter that addresses this problem. I will be getting one myself.

The problem with the 9mm Luger round is that the expansion that occurs, especially at the base where it is widest, does not get resized in most resizing dies. The new die also allows the complete resizing down past the base. I know from personal experience that my 9 mm reloads that shoot without problems in my Springfield Range Officer will not even chambered in my friends expensive and accurate automatic. He has a tighter chamber. It does fine with new factory ammo. When he shot one of mine it would not feed all the way and had to be knocked back out of the barrel with a squib rod and a hammer.

Keep in mind that barrels with tight chambers that are in spec., shoot more accurately than looser barrels that are also within specifications.

[lklawson]

LEE is making a new 9mm die that is .002 to .003 inches tighter that addresses this problem. I will be getting one myself.

The problem with the 9mm Luger round is that the expansion that occurs, especially at the base where it is widest, does not get resized in most resizing dies. The new die also allows the complete resizing down past the base. I know from personal experience that my 9 mm reloads that shoot without problems in my Springfield Range Officer will not even chambered in my friends expensive and accurate automatic. He has a tighter chamber. It does fine with new factory ammo. When he shot one of mine it would not feed all the way and had to be knocked back out of the barrel with a squib rod and a hammer.

That's awesome... but that sucks.

It's great that they're making an "improved" die set.

It sucks that if I want to take advantage of it, I have to buy a new die set.  I already spring for the 9mm Luger FCD. 

Do you have a link?

Keep in mind that barrels with tight chambers that are in spec., shoot more accurately than looser barrels that are also within specifications.

Yup.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk