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April 21, 2018, 08:05:59 AM

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Author Topic: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.  (Read 1853 times)

buckhammer

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R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« on: October 10, 2017, 04:35:06 AM »
Hello all.  I recently joined and outside of a post in the new members section this is my first post, I hate that its a controversial one.  I and my wife have shot my new gen 2 R51 on 3 occasions without an issue until yesterday.  Have had maybe 2 boxes through it total.  Yesterday while at the range I shot about 4 or 5 mags of winchester white box 115 gr fmj.  On the last mag the next to the last round went off out of battery or not fully seated.  It blew the last round down through the mag along with the follower, spring, and baseplate onto my little finger which was wrapped  under the grip.  As always (and fortunately) I was wearing gloves, eyes, and ears.  My glove was cut and my pinkie finger is still numb but I'm otherwise not hurt, but pretty shaken up.  I've been shooting for over 20 years (thousands of rounds) and this is the first time I've ever had a catastrophic firearm failure.  I found all the mag parts/pieces except for the spring. I called Remington customer service and told them what happened and am waiting for them to call me back...they will probably want to exchange my R51 for a new one but I'm scared to death of the R51 now.  Last night I examined the firearm and documented it well with pictures and video.  My Borescope revealed the case (still lodged in the chamber) is sitting about 1.5 to 2 mm out from the head of the chamber.  Has anyone had this or something similar happen with the Gen 2 R51?  I knew the gen 1's had some issues with out of battery discharge but I never owned one.  It's too bad, I really liked the way the R51 looked, handled, and shot.

lklawson

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 04:53:19 AM »
I'm sorry to hear about your mishap.  I'm glad that you are OK.

There is a possibility that what you experienced was NOT an out-of-battery detonation but, instead, a case failure.

Because the Pedersen Block/"Hesitation" Block acts as a simple blowback operated firearm for the first, very short, portion of recoil action, it is not locked in place yet.  It is possible that the case moved as it normally would but a weak case or an over-pressure event (for one of several reasons) caused a case failure and you experienced a blowout.

Is this what happened?  I don't know but I do know that the R51 has an Out-of-Battery Disconnect which is supposed to prevent out-of-battery firing.  So the OOB disconnect might have failed to properly function, or there might have been an overpressure or weak case.

In any event, it is heartening that the design of the firearm worked.  What I mean is that most modern pistols are designed so that if there is a case blowout, it channels the expanding gasses down the magazine well which helps protect the shooter.

Was there any brass shrapnel that escaped through the ejection port?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

jpsib

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2017, 11:49:05 PM »
I had that same exact thing happen to me with the gen 1 version of the R51. I sent it back to Remington and got my money back. Now, I will say that Winchester white box ammo is not the highest quality, I recently had one round in which the case was just slightly longer than it should have been and locked up the PPS M2 that I was shooting at the time (the gun would not go fully into battery and would not fire). With the generation 2 version of the gun I was surprised that Remington did not change the chamber so that it would fully support the case of the 9 mm. I still love this gun and would love to have the gen 2 version but just not ready to buy one,  still waiting to see if Remington gets all the problems fixed.     

lklawson

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2017, 12:44:09 AM »
I had that same exact thing happen to me with the gen 1 version of the R51. I sent it back to Remington and got my money back. Now, I will say that Winchester white box ammo is not the highest quality, I recently had one round in which the case was just slightly longer than it should have been and locked up the PPS M2 that I was shooting at the time (the gun would not go fully into battery and would not fire). With the generation 2 version of the gun I was surprised that Remington did not change the chamber so that it would fully support the case of the 9 mm. I still love this gun and would love to have the gen 2 version but just not ready to buy one,  still waiting to see if Remington gets all the problems fixed.     
My biggest complaint with the R51 barrel is the very short Leade/freebore.  It makes building reloads which work well for my R51 such a PITA that I've given up on it.

I'll reload for my other 9's but just have to bite the bullet (har har) so to speak and feed the R51 factory ammo.  Aggravates me.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

plunkster

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2017, 02:10:15 PM »
Hmmm... I haven't had any trouble with my reloads at all... I load Xtreme copper-plated, 115gr, over 4.7gr of W231 with a COL of 1.15 inches. What do you load?

lklawson

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 12:31:06 AM »
Hmmm... I haven't had any trouble with my reloads at all... I load Xtreme copper-plated, 115gr, over 4.7gr of W231 with a COL of 1.15 inches. What do you load?
I've tried 6 different bullets.

Most recently, RMR 115gr FMJ  - https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets-for-reloading/9mm-115-grain-rmr-fmj/?v=7516fd43adaa
But also:
115 gr. Hard Cast coated with a softer "dome" profile by Black Bullets - http://shop.blackbulletsinternational.com/9-115gr-500-9-115-500QTY.htm?categoryId=1
115 gr. Hard Cast coated from Missouri Bullet Company - http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=316&category=5&secondary=8&keywords=
125 gr. Hard Cast "Cone Nose" coated from Missouri Bullet Company - http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=237&category=5&secondary=8&keywords=
124 gr. Hard Cast from Missouri Bullet Company - http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=51&category=5&secondary=8&keywords=
115 gr. Hard Cast coated from SNS Casting - http://www.snscasting.com/new-red-9mm-115-grain-round-nose-coated-500ct/

The most successful was the SNS bullets.

My biggest problem is the short Leade/Freebore.  I can almost never make the loads at the recommended COAL.  It fails the plunk test almost every time.  Often, when set at the recommended COAL, it impinges so strongly past the Leade that a tool most be used to pull the cartridge back out of the chamber after the Plunk.  So I have to seat the bullets deeper.  This means that 1) have to reduce the powder charge and 2) end up with an ever decreasing COAL.  The decreasing COAL frequently makes feeding a problem.  I end up with live-round "stove pipes" feed errors or even rounds popping out of the mag during firing.

My worst results were with the FMJ.  Dangerously OP issues.  I shot 5 rounds and pulled back down to components the other 45 that I built.

My best results were with the SNS bullets.  I still had failure to feed issues with them, but far less than with other bullets.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

plunkster

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 10:04:09 AM »
I just "plunk-checked" my reloads and they are perfect... You might have a lemon barrel(?) Not sure if it makes any difference, but I bought mine right after the Gen 2s came out and haven't had any of the problems I have seen people talk about on this forum (after about the first 100 rounds).

lklawson

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2017, 12:21:24 AM »
I just "plunk-checked" my reloads and they are perfect... You might have a lemon barrel(?) Not sure if it makes any difference, but I bought mine right after the Gen 2s came out and haven't had any of the problems I have seen people talk about on this forum (after about the first 100 rounds).
I plunk mine too.  I actually bought a second barrel so that I could have it in my reloading gear to plunk right away.

The rounds that plunk right end up being so short that they cause feed problems.

It's not too big a deal, just a bit irritating is all.  I'll just feed the R51 factory fresh ammo and save my reloads for all of my other 9mm chambered guns.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

buckhammer

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 04:53:53 AM »
Well,
An update.  I sent my R51 to Rem repair and they received it 25 Oct.  I gave them a few months to get their story straight and checked the online repair status last week and again today.  Status shows "Parked".  What does that mean? I call the service center number today and the recording says the staff is in training today.  Prior to sending the gun in for repair I spoke to an attorney in their corporate office about the out-of-battery blow-up; I'll get back with him to see if he will inquire.  At his point, I just want my money back.

funflyer

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2018, 06:15:21 AM »
Don't keep us in suspense, let's see the pics >:(

1911SHOOTER

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2018, 08:40:59 AM »
buckhammer,
     Stay on their asses.  Big Green has been kind of lackadaisical lately about
repairs.   They seem to be inclined to replace.   Especially about repairs.
As much as we love these little guns,  I am starting to wonder how long they
will last.   I have fiddled and diddled with my 8 magazines and can't wait to
get in some warm weather to try out the mods.   Otherwise, I will have a
Single shot R51!
Blackie
So many guns, so little time!

R51Fan2017

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2018, 07:11:56 AM »
Stay on their six buckhammer! If you got to call them once a week, do it. Sad to hear about this happening to another R51 owner, let alone anybody. I wonder if a simple barrel swap would have had you up and going again? Keep at it! Would like to see some pics though.
"A woman who demands further gun control legislation is like a chicken who roots for Colonel Sanders."

                  - Larry Elder

1911SHOOTER

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2018, 08:31:51 AM »
I just "plunk-checked" my reloads and they are perfect... You might have a lemon barrel(?) Not sure if it makes any difference, but I bought mine right after the Gen 2s came out and haven't had any of the problems I have seen people talk about on this forum (after about the first 100 rounds).
I plunk mine too.  I actually bought a second barrel so that I could have it in my reloading gear to plunk right away.

The rounds that plunk right end up being so short that they cause feed problems.

It's not too big a deal, just a bit irritating is all.  I'll just feed the R51 factory fresh ammo and save my reloads for all of my other 9mm chambered guns.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


Kirk,
     Is it possible to have a competent gunsmith rerbore the chamber so that the reloads fit properly?"
Kinda above my pay grade.The barrels on ebay are cheap enough to try it on one or two.
Blackie
So many guns, so little time!

lklawson

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2018, 02:50:32 AM »
I just "plunk-checked" my reloads and they are perfect... You might have a lemon barrel(?) Not sure if it makes any difference, but I bought mine right after the Gen 2s came out and haven't had any of the problems I have seen people talk about on this forum (after about the first 100 rounds).
I plunk mine too.  I actually bought a second barrel so that I could have it in my reloading gear to plunk right away.

The rounds that plunk right end up being so short that they cause feed problems.

It's not too big a deal, just a bit irritating is all.  I'll just feed the R51 factory fresh ammo and save my reloads for all of my other 9mm chambered guns.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


Kirk,
     Is it possible to have a competent gunsmith rerbore the chamber so that the reloads fit properly?"
Kinda above my pay grade.The barrels on ebay are cheap enough to try it on one or two.
Blackie
Yes, a competent gunsmith can do mods to the leade/freebore.  When I looked at it, it was more than I wanted to spend.  That said, the fact that the freebore is at SAAMI minimum doesn't mean that the chamber is out of spec.  It's just at minimum.   :(

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

buckhammer

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Re: R51 fired without cartridge fully seated.
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2018, 03:32:45 AM »
Another update, this time with pics.  I finally spoke to someone in the service department on Wednesday, (Jan 17th 2018) and they were unable to assist me stating they couldn't find any status information about my R51.  I was transferred to a "supervisor" and they too were unable to find the status of the R51.  I told the supervisor what had transpired and that I was expecting a refund, not replacement/repair.  The supervisor told me he was emailing Remington's attorney I had been working with to call me with an update.  (I won't reveal the attorney's name as I think that would not help my case.)  As of today, I haven't heard back from the attorney and the pistol is still showing a "Parked" status in their on-line repair system.  Today, I left a voicemail on the attorney's phone requesting an update on the status and refund.  Hopefully I'll hear back.  I've attached pictures.

 

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