Just about all the primers from the cases fired through my R51 have the bulge with the crater flow around the firing pin. Reading dozens of threads on several different forums points to all kinds of causes, from headspace, firing pin hole too large, over-pressure, firing pin design and so-on. One writeup suggested the Pedersen design contributes to this by nature of a non-locking breech block that's free to move as the firing pin strikes the primer. Seems plausible.
So are there enough of us having primer anomalies to consider them normal with the R51, or are there some that never have the issue?
Todd,
You need to get with Kirk on that issue. He seems pretty sharp on that stuff.
It could be a head space issue, but that is mostly above my pay grade
Blackie
Todd,
I have been having the same issue, from round 1. I discounted it as being normal after I examining all of my cases. Never had a problem, or felt like the cartridges were overloaded. Maybe a headspace issue, but I have yet to have a serious failure yet, so I am not overly concerned about it. Should I be?? Who knows. Just saying.
Sean
I have seen this with several 9mm and 380acp handguns. I wouldn't worry about it unless you are handloading some very hot rounds.
Guys,
Next time I go shooting, (tomorrow) I will examine my brass.
Blackie
Blackie, let us know which ammo you're using also. I've noticed that the primers from the Winchester NATO spec stuff look much better than just about all the others, including the Winchester red label. Not sure why, different primers maybe?
Todd,
As i have stated many times, I am impartial to brands of 9MM. My Charlotte
R51 (Blackie) eats anything. My Huntsville R51, (Smokey) Is working well too.
Tomorrow, I will try Winchester USA Forged, steel case. Among others.
My ammo box is mixed. I grab a bunch of ammo out of the box, and take it to the
range. If a pistol does not like it, the pistol goes into the safe as a safe queen.
Magazines, a different story, they are numbered and logged. All pistols.
Blackie
Here's a few for comparison. Most are like this except for the Winchester NATO which are half this bad.
Quote from: funflyer on January 28, 2018, 11:14:27 PM
Here's a few for comparison. Most are like this except for the Winchester NATO which are half this bad.
Todd,
I used Federal in my tests and they all (150 rounds) looked like that. I am beginning to think this is normal for this pistol.
Sean
I don't see any other signs of excessive pressure, looks to me that it's just primer flow into the firing pin channel under normal chamber pressure. If you can, measure your pin channel; mine is 0.078".
The three different R51's I've had all do this. The Gen 1 was the worst. It would expand the crater so much that the empty brass would not sit level on it's base after firing.
The two Gen 2's do it but not nearly so bad.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Quote from: Engineerpower on January 29, 2018, 10:09:41 AM
I don't see any other signs of excessive pressure, looks to me that it's just primer flow into the firing pin channel under normal chamber pressure. If you can, measure your pin channel; mine is 0.078".
My FP channel measures .075" however, some of the primer bulges are .015" to .020" larger with witness marks from the smaller pin channel. This can only mean the case is not in contact with the breech face during firing. I'm going to measure the headspace today and see where we're at. I'll post more info later along with pics.
Quote from: lklawson on January 29, 2018, 10:38:56 AM
The three different R51's I've had all do this. The Gen 1 was the worst. It would expand the crater so much that the empty brass would not sit level on it's base after firing.
The two Gen 2's do it but not nearly so bad.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Kirk, any chance you still have a gen1? It would be interesting to compare and see the differences between the two.
Quote from: funflyer on January 29, 2018, 10:53:28 AMKirk, any chance you still have a gen1? It would be interesting to compare and see the differences between the two.
I traded it back to Remington for a 1911R1. A dollar-value trade up. :)
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Okay, now things are starting to make sense as to why this is happening.
First, the headspace is within spec @ .760", not terrible, but I'd rather see it closer to the minimum since most cases are are in the .745" to .749" range.
Now for the first issue. The extractor makes contact with the front of the extractor groove to the point it's keeping the round from contacting the breech face, not good. Using a dowel down the barrel, I can feel the resistance when I try to seat the case up to the breech. Best I can tell it seems to be allowing a gap of .005" to .007". Take a look at the pic and you can see the mark made by the extractor when the round was fired or possibly when it was fed under the extractor, proof the extractor is causing an issue. There seems to be plenty of material at the hook so I may mod the extractor or buy another to mod.
Next comes the barrel, or chamber to be exact. Damn thing's tight. Starts at .390" near the breech face and is not concentric inward near the flange. It's runs .382" to 378" in spots. I ordered a new Ebay barrel to see is the originals are in spec but if they're not, I'll have to have a gunsmith clean them up with a finish reamer. In the pic below, you can see the obvious striations on the case from when it was extracted from a tight chamber.
Funflyer,
This stuff needs to be going to Big Green. We are spinning our wheels
here. Actually, Big Green needs to be liaising with us on these issues.
But they will undoubtedly say we are amateurs.
Blackie
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on January 29, 2018, 07:26:10 PM
Funflyer,
This stuff needs to be going to Big Green. We are spinning our wheels
here. Actually, Big Green needs to be liaising with us on these issues.
But they will undoubtedly say we are amateurs.
Blackie
Blackie, I'm sure Remington designers and engineers would tell us there is absolutely nothing wrong the pistol and we're overthinking things. Yes It works (mostly) but as we all know it can and should work better. So, at this point I'm just treating the pistol like the novelty it is.
I can tell you with certainty that every engineer wants to produce the best design they can, and will push up against the limits of their available resources to do so. The design lead may have been aware of primer flow, but had to prioritize some other design feature over refining the interplay between extractor and case.
The extractor is spring loaded, so I don't think it's going to prevent the round from being fully chambered once the slide is in battery. During firing and extraction, the case will recoil rearward into the extractor, giving it those marks on the chamber of the extractor groove, but the extractor has plenty of give to move out of the way and prevent interference with the breechface. I would see this as a non-issue, as the engineer team will be more focused on the firing cycle than the appearance/condition of fired cases. I doubt cosmetic appearance and reloadability of fired cases weighs very heavily on manufacturers; just look at what HK roller-locks do to their brass, or how many designs that headspace on the rim don't mind the case stretching out.
They definitely shot for the minimum-side of the chamber spec. Chambers will wear looser, though, never tighter. My guess would be that this was a conscious decision to prevent a negative experience from loose chamber and loose or out-of-spec cartridge. Much better to have difficulty chambering a large round than easily chambering anything.
Also keep in mind that this is a small, almost all-metal pistol with a sub-$300 price. There's only so much development time that Remington engineers were afforded for the effort. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on January 29, 2018, 07:26:10 PM
Funflyer,
This stuff needs to be going to Big Green. We are spinning our wheels
here. Actually, Big Green needs to be liaising with us on these issues.
But they will undoubtedly say we are amateurs.
Blackie
Blackie,
We aren't engineers. If we were, MAYBE, just MAYBE Remington would listen and give a crap. But we are nobodies in their eyes. Sad. :'(
Quote from: Engineerpower on January 30, 2018, 07:48:09 AM
The extractor is spring loaded, so I don't think it's going to prevent the round from being fully chambered once the slide is in battery.
Actually Cameron, that is incorrect. Remington didn't use a spring, they used a plastic ball for lack of better words to function as the spring for the extractor. It's springy enough to make the extractor work. Why they did this instead of a real spring, I will never know. Go look at your manual in the back with the exploded view. You will see what I am talking about.
Sorry, but if it functions as a spring, then it must be a duck!
In this case, a compression duck, umm, I mean spring. (got confused there for a second) ;D
A spring doesnt have to be steel or even metal.
I think Cameron is dead on here.
Next question, please, anybody with one of the old model 51s in either caliber, can you tell us what their fired primers look like?
As I understand, the breech block does move a fraction and then stops for a split second. I think that is where the very center of the primer has a chance to expand backwards.
Over pressure would expand, dead FLATTEN, the whole back side of said primer face. Even to completely "fill in" that gap, the chamfer between the primer and the case head.
Here, we still have a very pronounced, triangular gap all around the outside of the primer circumfrence and the matching one in the inside edge of the primer pocket.
Over pressure, and subsequent metal flow would virtually fill that tiny gap completely tight.
That said, I just went and looked at 46 of my "picups".
44 brass and 2 steel cases.
Now, 41 of those brass cases showed little or nothing, visible or feelable, (with a finger nail), while 3 showed and felt, the very center, including the firing pin indentation raising slightly up out of flat. Just a tiny, tiny nipple like rise.
However, both steel cases showed the same type protrusion. Not surprising to me.
There is a completely different elastic modulous between brass and steel.
And the hardness, (work hardness), of brass varies as well.
Hard brass has lots of "spring back", after firing.
Firing pushes everything out tight against the chamber walls of course. Hard brass shrinks back almost to it's prefired dimensions, while soft brass will tend to flow more easily and end up closer to the chamber walls, (if not stick, at least temporarily), and steel much more so. (Steel has much less rebound in every case).
I would guess the cartridge walls are sticking to the chamber walls in some differing amounts, allowing the primers to gain some extrusion when stuck tight, and none when the hull moves freely back with the breechblock.
Steel, the worst, softer brass a little less and quite hard brass, back to almost its original dimensions. (Too many of those, without anealing, and it will crack/split.)
I have found similar type primer deformation in some loads/brands with some autoloading shotguns. Switch loads or fire the same loads in a break open gun, and it no longer shows up.
Quote from: Chokejug on January 30, 2018, 11:33:06 PM
That said, I just went and looked at 46 of my "picups".
44 brass and 2 steel cases.
Now, 41 of those brass cases showed little or nothing, visible or feelable, (with a finger nail), while 3 showed and felt, the very center, including the firing pin indentation raising slightly up out of flat. Just a tiny, tiny nipple like rise.
However, both steel cases showed the same type protrusion. Not surprising to me.
This is my point, some pistols show no primer anomalies when many others do. Choke, could you see any indication of the extractor making contact with the forward side of the extractor groove on the brass cases that have normal primers? Also, any chance you could measure the distance from the breech face to the extractor hook with a feeler-gauge?
Quote from: funflyer on January 31, 2018, 10:23:56 AM
This is my point, some pistols show no primer anomalies when many others do. Choke, could you see any indication of the extractor making contact with the forward side of the extractor groove on the brass cases that have normal primers? Also, any chance you could measure the distance from the breech face to the extractor hook with a feeler-gauge?
Todd,
My cases are showing the extractor mark on them too. Just noticed.
Quote from: R51Fan2017 on January 31, 2018, 06:16:29 PM
Quote from: funflyer on January 31, 2018, 10:23:56 AM
This is my point, some pistols show no primer anomalies when many others do. Choke, could you see any indication of the extractor making contact with the forward side of the extractor groove on the brass cases that have normal primers? Also, any chance you could measure the distance from the breech face to the extractor hook with a feeler-gauge?
Todd,
My cases are showing the extractor mark on them too. Just noticed.
I think we're going to see all of them like this. It appears to be by design. The extractor pushes forward on the case to ensure it headspaces off the shoulder, keeping it fully seated in the chamber. The extractor can be polished to allow it to move more easily when the case recoils into the breech face. If you look at it closely you can see just how rough the casting is.
Quote from: R51Fan2017 on January 30, 2018, 09:02:24 AM
Quote from: Engineerpower on January 30, 2018, 07:48:09 AM
The extractor is spring loaded, so I don't think it's going to prevent the round from being fully chambered once the slide is in battery.
Actually Cameron, that is incorrect. Remington didn't use a spring, they used a plastic ball for lack of better words to function as the spring for the extractor. It's springy enough to make the extractor work. Why they did this instead of a real spring, I will never know. Go look at your manual in the back with the exploded view. You will see what I am talking about.
Yep, that caught me off-guard too. I wasn't expecting an elastomer spring, but can't knock them for trying something different. May have to look at getting a couple more as spares, and/or drilling out for a normal extractor spring.
Kinda like the Viton o-rings on the Remington 1100; I was a little surprised the first time I tore mine down and found a semi-critical component made from what I would consider a consumable material.
Huntsville produces brass cases that appear all normal.
RRR
Quote from: Engineerpower on February 01, 2018, 02:06:25 PM
Yep, that caught me off-guard too. I wasn't expecting an elastomer spring, but can't knock them for trying something different. May have to look at getting a couple more as spares, and/or drilling out for a normal extractor spring.
Kinda like the Viton o-rings on the Remington 1100; I was a little surprised the first time I tore mine down and found a semi-critical component made from what I would consider a consumable material.
How long do you think an elastomer is going to last? My estimation is that it won't be as good as an old fashioned spring.
Quote from: R51Fan2017 on February 01, 2018, 06:53:03 PM
Quote from: Engineerpower on February 01, 2018, 02:06:25 PM
Yep, that caught me off-guard too. I wasn't expecting an elastomer spring, but can't knock them for trying something different. May have to look at getting a couple more as spares, and/or drilling out for a normal extractor spring.
Kinda like the Viton o-rings on the Remington 1100; I was a little surprised the first time I tore mine down and found a semi-critical component made from what I would consider a consumable material.
How long do you think an elastomer is going to last? My estimation is that it won't be as good as an old fashioned spring.
Sean, I plan on taking out the extractor to mod it when I get and test my new barrel so I will see what the "pencil eraser" looks like when I remove it at that time. My experience with elastomers has been that they seem to take a "set" much sooner than a good ol spring will. Cameron may be right and a conventional spring replacement might be required at some point.
It could be that the Pedersen device does not work well with a spring setup on the extractor. Or maybe a spring would get fouled by carbon too quickly on the Pedersen device. It's certainly a different animal than other semiautos.
Quote from: Zenshot on February 02, 2018, 11:03:40 AM
It could be that the Pedersen device does not work well with a spring setup on the extractor. Or maybe a spring would get fouled by carbon too quickly on the Pedersen device. It's certainly a different animal than other semiautos.
Anybody here got an original model 51 to compare with??
Under compression, I am not going to worry about it.
Likely to last right up until gun oil or some cleaning agent causes it to just disintegrate.
Back to the bulged primers, I am more than ever convinced that the casings are sticking in the chamber, while the breech block moves back that minute fraction, as just a very tiny few of my brass cases are doing so, but its running close to 100 percent on all of the steel casses.
Steel just doesnt release either, as fast or as much as brass. Seen similar problems with certain auto loaders in shotguns and steel vs brass heads with plastic hulls.
Even some break open guns that wont release the steel heads for 20/30 seconds after firing. It seems that the heat from firing has to disapate a bit before that steel will turn loose from the chamber walls.
As I said, all I could find of the latest steel cases had the bulge, but the realy rusty ones from being fired in another gun or two, quite some months earlier, did not. Flat as they could be.
The new gen1 barrel I received is dimensionally equal to the gen2 with the exception that it has, or had, a very tight chamber until the hone and polish was done. The headspacing came down to .759" which is so negligible that it made no difference with the primer anomalies. At this point I'm just going to call them normal and live with it.
I did reshape the extractor on the forward side (see pic) which eliminated the case marks and also made the ejection very consistent compared to before. Before it would toss the brass everywhere including straight up and on the top of my head. Now it will eject the brass right to about the 4 or 5 o'clock position and out to 4 - 8 feet.
Oh, and the elastomer for the extractor doesn't look any worse for wear after 800+ rounds. (again see pic)