I have 7 R51 magazines.
Number #1 i had to clip the spring and take 3/16s off the follower.
same for mag #2..
#3 took 3/16 off the follower.
#4 and #5 had to straighten lip on the mag.
#6 straighten lip on mag and take 3/16 off the follower.
#7 straighten lip on mag.
It would seem like whoever is making the mags for Big Green would have
enough pride in their work to make them consistent. Love the gun.
hate their mags.
And Big Green does not seem to give a rat's butt!
Blackie
Blackie,
They don't care.........they just send a freebe in the mail to anyone who complains. What ticks me off is that this isn't the first automatic handgun they have made. It isn't that hard to get a magazine right. Ughhhh :(
I thought I read somewhere that Remington was once an ISO 9001 certified manufacturing facility. A quality system would never allow non-conforming parts to make it to customers in the numbers we're seeing with these magazines. I'm guessing that they couldn't pass a quality audit today to save their life and are no longer operating to ISO standards.
The last freebe mag I got from the Big Green was the worst so far. Incomplete weld at the bottom tip of the mag, and a tab that was bent WAY to far inward the mag, worse than I have seen. It looked like someone took pliers and bent it all the way in. So I took the needlenose, and bent it back out straight. QC at the Big Green has gone to heck in a handbasket.
Quote from: R51Fan2017 on December 16, 2017, 09:00:46 PM
The last freebe mag I got from the Big Green was the worst so far. Incomplete weld at the bottom tip of the mag, and a tab that was bent WAY to far inward the mag, worse than I have seen. It looked like someone took pliers and bent it all the way in. So I took the needlenose, and bent it back out straight. QC at the Big Green has gone to heck in a handbasket.
I wonder if some of these mags that they're sending out as replacements were customer returns that just got reinspected and adjusted.
Did your replacements come packaged like new ones or loose in in the mailer?
Quote from: funflyer on December 17, 2017, 08:59:32 AM
I wonder if some of these mags that they're sending out as replacements were customer returns that just got reinspected and adjusted.
Did your replacements come packaged like new ones or loose in in the mailer?
No it came loose in the mailer.
Both of mine came loose in the mailer also.
Blackie
My R51 Smoke came with two mags. On #6 I had to trim the bottom of the follower
in order to be able to load the 7th round.. still had the nose dive problem.
I took #6 and #7 and swapped the guts in them. The problem followed
the guts. Now #7 nose dives and #6 is fine. Any thoughts?
Only two suspects left, the slope of the follower or the spring.
Can't do any thing to the slope of the follower, Maybe trim a loop off the
spring? Doubtful.
Only four parts in the magazine, the follower, the spring, the end plate and
base pad. And the shell itself! Not much I can do about that though.
Blackie
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on December 17, 2017, 12:32:28 PM
My R51 Smoke came with two mags. On #6 I had to trim the bottom of the follower
in order to be able to load the 7th round.. still had the nose dive problem.
I took #6 and #7 and swapped the guts in them. The problem followed
the guts. Now #7 nose dives and #6 is fine. Any thoughts?
Only two suspects left, the slope of the follower or the spring.
Can't do any thing to the slope of the follower, Maybe trim a loop off the
spring? Doubtful.
Only four parts in the magazine, the follower, the spring, the end plate and
base pad. And the shell itself! Not much I can do about that though.
Blackie
Blackie,
Hold your R51 mag up next to your 1911 mags. You will see they are exactly the same width. Why Remington designed a 9mm mag to be the same width as a .45 I have no idea. Also, look through the holes in the side. You will see that the bullets are able to have quite a bit of side to side movement inside the mag, as opposed to your 1911 mags. Why Reminton, why??
[/quote]
Hold your R51 mag up next to your 1911 mags. You will see they are exactly the same width. Why Remington designed a 9mm mag to be the same width as a .45 I have no idea. Also, look through the holes in the side. You will see that the bullets are able to have quite a bit of side to side movement inside the mag, as opposed to your 1911 mags. Why Reminton, why??
[/quote]
Noticed that too. Thinking to offer different caliber in the future using the same frame?... Joe
FlatEarther,
Nice call, except for one thing. The inward grooves down each side of the mag
preclude anything larger than 9 mil sliding down the mags. I am going to try to find
some similar springs,My Ria 9MM mags are a good candidate, and I can cut
them down to size. I get a "Click" every once in a while with a tough seventh
cartridge hard to load, and the the cartridge pops in! Spring over lap maybe?
And maybe find a machinist who can make an aluminum follower.
Be nice to be able to file any problem causing lumps away huh?
Then spread the info on the follower here.
Blackie
Blackie, to clarify I'm talking the size of the the mag well in the gun frame, not the 9mm magazine itself.
R51Fan is kinda asking why the mag well is oversized for 9mm?
A good question... Joe
Blackie, I have one of those "only six" mags as well.
It is #1 or 2, forget which right now.
Though it doesnt really matter, they both came with the first pistol. They have both had the followers trimed, the only 2 of five that needed it.
Load 6 and it "sometimes" come up tight.
Mess with it enough and it will let out a loud enough "click" for this deaf old man to hear and feel, and #7 round will slip right in. Either way, they all work fine now when used in the guns.
One of the other 3 only needed that follower stop adjusted, no other modifications needed at all.
BTW, loving that RIA with the .22 TCM barrel!
Quote from: FlatEarther on December 17, 2017, 03:42:58 PM
Blackie, to clarify I'm talking the size of the the mag well in the gun frame, not the 9mm magazine itself.
R51Fan is kinda asking why the mag well is oversized for 9mm?
A good question... Joe
Joe,
You are barking up the right tree when I was talking about mag size. You are still further correct to say that the mag WELL is oversized for 9mm. Go get a 1911 mag and stick it up the R51's well. Not only does it fit in there, but you also have wiggle room to spare........
Blackie, I believe you're on to the culprit, the follower. I haven't done any testing but have my suspicions. I think one of two things could be the root cause of the feed issues, both during firing and the first round racking ability.
First are the follower's flat bottom feet. They could very well be catching on the spring coils during compression and not allowing the spring to stack smoothly into the follower, or forcing one coil to double up inside another which would cause uneven tension on the follower from front to back.
Next is the looseness of the follower inside the mag which causes it to rock up in the front, down in the back or vise versa when pressure is applied. I compared this to one of my Shield's magazines. With any number of rounds loaded, it was easier to push the nose of the top round downward and further into the R51's mag than it was with the Shield's. Spring pressure could have something to do with the results as the Shield's spring is much tougher.
Now the kicker...I dropped the Shield's follower into the R51's mag, yes it fit and pretty well so i assembled the mag using the S&W follower. Now doing the same push test, the round's nose couldn't be pushed down as far as before, close but not as far. I loaded 7 rounds into the hybrid mag and the R51 manually fed and ejected every one just as well as the original. Tried it again with 7+1 and it worked also. The only issue is the follower is shorter and shaped different enough that it won't make contact with the slide stop. Next time I hit the range I'm going to test to see if the pistol will function reliably with the S&W follower. I'd sure like to test this using a known problematic magazine though.
Now, to correct the first issue, if it is indeed the follower feet catching the spring coils, a simple taper of the follower's feet using an exacto knife on the inside could help. For the slop/play issue, a new follower made from a less flexible material, like your aluminum idea, would be needed.
Anyway, that's my 2cents. Something to think about.
Quote from: FlatEarther on December 17, 2017, 03:42:58 PM
Blackie, to clarify I'm talking the size of the the mag well in the gun frame, not the 9mm magazine itself.
R51Fan is kinda asking why the mag well is oversized for 9mm?
A good question... Joe
Joe,
point well taken. something to think about. But if Big Green cannot make a working mag for the R51 9mm, who's to say
they can do it for any other calibre?
Blackie
Fun Flyer,
I think we are getting to the crux of the problem. Why Big Green cannot do this
I do not know. Personnel downturn? Let us know how the other follower works,
I am sure that Brownells or Midway will have those parts.
We may be getting down to the short rows!
I can live with the slide not locking open, That is why we have hands.
I have been checking some of my other mag springs also. Closest one
is the Norinco Model 213 9 MM. But I only have one spring and do not want to
clip it.
Good catch!
Blackie
I think Funflyer has gotten down to where the rubber is meeting the road so to speak. I may try the follower off of my dad's XD and see if that helps any. I don't have a S&W Shield to experiment with. I think we just about have our mag problems licked!
Quote from: R51Fan2017 on December 16, 2017, 06:33:00 PM
Blackie,
They don't care.........they just send a freebe in the mail to anyone who complains.
I may have to complain just so that I can get a free mag. ;)
QuoteWhat ticks me off is that this isn't the first automatic handgun they have made. It isn't that hard to get a magazine right. Ughhhh :(
I have to disagree. The magazine is the hardest part of a semi-auto to get right. If there is a feed problem with a gun 8 times out of 10 it is related to the mag. Even in the well-worn world of 1911's there are, and always have been, magazine issues; and it's a 100+ year old design. Even today experts recommend that specialty "high quality" 1911 mags be purchased, Wilson Combat seems to be a common recommendation, for magazines you can depend on.
Same with Glock, noted for their emphasis on reliability ahead of all else, has had countless revisions to the magazines for their various pistols.
I don't know why. I agree that it seems magazines should be pretty easy to do; it's a frick'n tube with a spring, follower and baseplate. 4 blasted parts. Why should it be so hard? But apparently it is.
go figure.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
FunFlyer,
I am going to take the follower out of my #7 mag and hit it with my Dremel tool.
Round off the bottom of the legs and see what happens.
Thanks for the tip.
Blackie
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on December 18, 2017, 10:29:29 AM
FunFlyer,
I am going to take the follower out of my #7 mag and hit it with my Dremel tool.
Round off the bottom of the legs and see what happens.
Thanks for the tip.
Blackie
Keep us updated!
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on December 18, 2017, 10:29:29 AM
FunFlyer,
I am going to take the follower out of my #7 mag and hit it with my Dremel tool.
Round off the bottom of the legs and see what happens.
Thanks for the tip.
Blackie
Yes, can't wait for the report. I'm heading to the range in 30 minutes to test the Shield follower. I also have another potential problem area of the mag to discuss this afternoon.
Quote from: funflyer on December 18, 2017, 10:55:18 AM
Yes, can't wait for the report. I'm heading to the range in 30 minutes to test the Shield follower. I also have another potential problem area of the mag to discuss this afternoon.
Feel free to PM for my email. Me and Blackie have been batting this back and forth. Would love to get some more input.
I've shelved my R51. I am unable to get 100% reliability with my preferred CC ammo - Federal 115 grain JHP +P+. Most failures are FTF by hanging on that front lip of the mag; and I'm sick of fooling with it.
My CZ83 is 100% reliable with any ammo, and it's only slightly more bulky than this baulky R51.
Quote from: DUTCH Van Atlanta on December 18, 2017, 03:30:58 PM
I've shelved my R51. I am unable to get 100% reliability with my preferred CC ammo - Federal 115 grain JHP +P+. Most failures are FTF by hanging on that front lip of the mag; and I'm sick of fooling with it.
My CZ83 is 100% reliable with any ammo, and it's only slightly more bulky than this baulky R51.
Dutch,
+P+???? That's too hot!! It's only rated for +P. Have you straightened out the lip on the front? I am able to run Federal Hydra-Shocks JHP through mine 100% failure free. If you don't want to keep it, and depending on how much you may want to sell it for, I may just be able to relieve you of it ;D
Quote from: DUTCH Van Atlanta on December 18, 2017, 03:30:58 PM
I've shelved my R51. I am unable to get 100% reliability with my preferred CC ammo - Federal 115 grain JHP +P+. Most failures are FTF by hanging on that front lip of the mag; and I'm sick of fooling with it.
My CZ83 is 100% reliable with any ammo, and it's only slightly more bulky than this baulky R51.
Dutch,
Bend the little lip on the front of the mag, straight, that is what we are doing. I now have 8 magazines, and 6 of them are functioning
properly, and I am going to modify the other two tonight. Also, +P+ is not recommended for the R51. Just my opinion.
If you do not want the R51, maybe somebody on here will "adopt" it. ;D ;D ;D
It really bugs me to see a dissatisfied R51 owner. :-[ :-[
Blackie
Okay, I had a pretty successful run with the shield follower in the R51 mag. 18 mags fired and only twice did the last round not feed, got hung up on the top of the chamber. Not bad for doing absolutely nothing to the mag or Shield follower. What I think would make it 100% reliable, except for the slide hold open, would be to bend that lip on the front of the mag back out a bit so the follower would come up farther and keep more tension on the last round.
I also tapered the feet of one of the factory followers to see if it would smooth things out and it actually did. Using a pencil to run the follower all the way to the bottom of the mag, there was about an 75% reduction in that harsh snap, crackle and pop of the spring as it fed inside the follower. If the spring were actually straight I think it would be almost perfect.
Now for the next area that I think needs attention, the feed lips. I was trying to duplicate a round nosedive by very slowly racking a round, riding the slide forward from the time the breech block contacted the round. I found it was easy to nosedive a round into the mag with just one of my mags but couldn't ever get it to happen with the other, it would start to dive in that mag but, instead of dropping below the front lip of the mag, it would contact the feed ramp and slip right into the chamber. So, the trick here was to use some 1000, 1500 and 2000 grit sand paper to remove the machine marks from the inside of the feed lips, then polish them using my Dremel and some jeweler's rouge. Now that mag feeds better than the other.
May be one, or a combination of the things I've mentioned with the followers but I believe if all these things were done it would cure 99% of the feed problems.
Thanks Funflyer for the review. Now I know some things I need to do to tweak mine a little. However, on mine, I have a 100% success ratio after bending the lip forward. I need to trim the follower down for sure.
FunFlyer,
You rock!
I am going to modify my mags by tapering the followers. Maybe I will order
an s&w follower just to use as a model. Still think an aluminum follower
would be great but do not have access to a machine shop.
It is a damn shame that Remington does not want to listen to their
customers who are busting their cajones to correct Big Greens
lack of support!
Blackie
Even if a new factory magazine operates flawlessly, I wonder how many rounds it will take before issues crop up. If you look at the follower in my pic above you can see a divot forming just above the feed ramp. No wear like that should be seen after only 200 rounds through a mag.
A better plastic for a follower would be delrin (acetal).
Funflyer I never noticed the divot until you pointed it out. Thanks!
Anyone, my 2 mags. that came with my gun have the divot on top of the follower. One mag has 25 or less rounds through it and the other less than 100 rounds.
Could it be that the mags. are manufactured with that divot in them?
Anyone with never-used mags, will you please take a look and let us know if they have this divot?
I can't figure out how this divot would improve functioning, so am wondering wether the divot is a manufacturing or engineering mistake.
I have one mag #1 That is the oldest, it has the divot. #8 my newest that
Big Green sent me does not have the divot. Looks to me like that the
earlier plastic followers were formed from a faulty Mould.
Ideas?
Blackie
Quote from: Indianrider on February 14, 2018, 09:23:24 AM
Funflyer I never noticed the divot until you pointed it out. Thanks!
Anyone, my 2 mags. that came with my gun have the divot on top of the follower. One mag has 25 or less rounds through it and the other less than 100 rounds.
Could it be that the mags. are manufactured with that divot in them?
Anyone with never-used mags, will you please take a look and let us know if they have this divot?
I can't figure out how this divot would improve functioning, so am wondering wether the divot is a manufacturing or engineering mistake.
I always assumed the divot is wear created as the last round is entering the chamber at that initial steep angle.
On my 2 older mags w 800 rounds each...a definite, pronounced divot. With mags 3 & 4 , with < 100 rnds each, there is a small divot on each. I polished 1 & 2 early on but have not done so with the 2 latest. Nor have I clipped and trimmed the follower legs on the last 2, but I will when the Charlotte pistol gets back from the factory because of the mag release pin repair.