Hello all. I recently joined and outside of a post in the new members section this is my first post, I hate that its a controversial one. I and my wife have shot my new gen 2 R51 on 3 occasions without an issue until yesterday. Have had maybe 2 boxes through it total. Yesterday while at the range I shot about 4 or 5 mags of winchester white box 115 gr fmj. On the last mag the next to the last round went off out of battery or not fully seated. It blew the last round down through the mag along with the follower, spring, and baseplate onto my little finger which was wrapped under the grip. As always (and fortunately) I was wearing gloves, eyes, and ears. My glove was cut and my pinkie finger is still numb but I'm otherwise not hurt, but pretty shaken up. I've been shooting for over 20 years (thousands of rounds) and this is the first time I've ever had a catastrophic firearm failure. I found all the mag parts/pieces except for the spring. I called Remington customer service and told them what happened and am waiting for them to call me back...they will probably want to exchange my R51 for a new one but I'm scared to death of the R51 now. Last night I examined the firearm and documented it well with pictures and video. My Borescope revealed the case (still lodged in the chamber) is sitting about 1.5 to 2 mm out from the head of the chamber. Has anyone had this or something similar happen with the Gen 2 R51? I knew the gen 1's had some issues with out of battery discharge but I never owned one. It's too bad, I really liked the way the R51 looked, handled, and shot.
I'm sorry to hear about your mishap. I'm glad that you are OK.
There is a possibility that what you experienced was NOT an out-of-battery detonation but, instead, a case failure.
Because the Pedersen Block/"Hesitation" Block acts as a simple blowback operated firearm for the first, very short, portion of recoil action, it is not locked in place yet. It is possible that the case moved as it normally would but a weak case or an over-pressure event (for one of several reasons) caused a case failure and you experienced a blowout.
Is this what happened? I don't know but I do know that the R51 has an Out-of-Battery Disconnect which is supposed to prevent out-of-battery firing. So the OOB disconnect might have failed to properly function, or there might have been an overpressure or weak case.
In any event, it is heartening that the design of the firearm worked. What I mean is that most modern pistols are designed so that if there is a case blowout, it channels the expanding gasses down the magazine well which helps protect the shooter.
Was there any brass shrapnel that escaped through the ejection port?
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I had that same exact thing happen to me with the gen 1 version of the R51. I sent it back to Remington and got my money back. Now, I will say that Winchester white box ammo is not the highest quality, I recently had one round in which the case was just slightly longer than it should have been and locked up the PPS M2 that I was shooting at the time (the gun would not go fully into battery and would not fire). With the generation 2 version of the gun I was surprised that Remington did not change the chamber so that it would fully support the case of the 9 mm. I still love this gun and would love to have the gen 2 version but just not ready to buy one, still waiting to see if Remington gets all the problems fixed.
Quote from: jpsib on October 13, 2017, 07:49:05 AM
I had that same exact thing happen to me with the gen 1 version of the R51. I sent it back to Remington and got my money back. Now, I will say that Winchester white box ammo is not the highest quality, I recently had one round in which the case was just slightly longer than it should have been and locked up the PPS M2 that I was shooting at the time (the gun would not go fully into battery and would not fire). With the generation 2 version of the gun I was surprised that Remington did not change the chamber so that it would fully support the case of the 9 mm. I still love this gun and would love to have the gen 2 version but just not ready to buy one, still waiting to see if Remington gets all the problems fixed.
My biggest complaint with the R51 barrel is the very short Leade/freebore. It makes building reloads which work well for my R51 such a PITA that I've given up on it.
I'll reload for my other 9's but just have to bite the bullet (har har) so to speak and feed the R51 factory ammo. Aggravates me.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Hmmm... I haven't had any trouble with my reloads at all... I load Xtreme copper-plated, 115gr, over 4.7gr of W231 with a COL of 1.15 inches. What do you load?
Quote from: plunkster on October 16, 2017, 10:10:15 PM
Hmmm... I haven't had any trouble with my reloads at all... I load Xtreme copper-plated, 115gr, over 4.7gr of W231 with a COL of 1.15 inches. What do you load?
I've tried 6 different bullets.
Most recently, RMR 115gr FMJ - https://rmrbullets.com/shop/bullets-for-reloading/9mm-115-grain-rmr-fmj/?v=7516fd43adaa
But also:
115 gr. Hard Cast coated with a softer "dome" profile by Black Bullets - http://shop.blackbulletsinternational.com/9-115gr-500-9-115-500QTY.htm?categoryId=1
115 gr. Hard Cast coated from Missouri Bullet Company - http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=316&category=5&secondary=8&keywords=
125 gr. Hard Cast "Cone Nose" coated from Missouri Bullet Company - http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=237&category=5&secondary=8&keywords=
124 gr. Hard Cast from Missouri Bullet Company - http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=51&category=5&secondary=8&keywords=
115 gr. Hard Cast coated from SNS Casting - http://www.snscasting.com/new-red-9mm-115-grain-round-nose-coated-500ct/
The most successful was the SNS bullets.
My biggest problem is the short Leade/Freebore. I can almost never make the loads at the recommended COAL. It fails the plunk test almost every time. Often, when set at the recommended COAL, it impinges so strongly past the Leade that a tool most be used to pull the cartridge back out of the chamber after the Plunk. So I have to seat the bullets deeper. This means that 1) have to reduce the powder charge and 2) end up with an ever decreasing COAL. The decreasing COAL frequently makes feeding a problem. I end up with live-round "stove pipes" feed errors or even rounds popping out of the mag during firing.
My worst results were with the FMJ. Dangerously OP issues. I shot 5 rounds and pulled back down to components the other 45 that I built.
My best results were with the SNS bullets. I still had failure to feed issues with them, but far less than with other bullets.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I just "plunk-checked" my reloads and they are perfect... You might have a lemon barrel(?) Not sure if it makes any difference, but I bought mine right after the Gen 2s came out and haven't had any of the problems I have seen people talk about on this forum (after about the first 100 rounds).
Quote from: plunkster on October 17, 2017, 06:04:09 PM
I just "plunk-checked" my reloads and they are perfect... You might have a lemon barrel(?) Not sure if it makes any difference, but I bought mine right after the Gen 2s came out and haven't had any of the problems I have seen people talk about on this forum (after about the first 100 rounds).
I plunk mine too. I actually bought a second barrel so that I could have it in my reloading gear to plunk right away.
The rounds that plunk right end up being so short that they cause feed problems.
It's not too big a deal, just a bit irritating is all. I'll just feed the R51 factory fresh ammo and save my reloads for all of my other 9mm chambered guns.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Well,
An update. I sent my R51 to Rem repair and they received it 25 Oct. I gave them a few months to get their story straight and checked the online repair status last week and again today. Status shows "Parked". What does that mean? I call the service center number today and the recording says the staff is in training today. Prior to sending the gun in for repair I spoke to an attorney in their corporate office about the out-of-battery blow-up; I'll get back with him to see if he will inquire. At his point, I just want my money back.
Don't keep us in suspense, let's see the pics >:(
buckhammer,
Stay on their asses. Big Green has been kind of lackadaisical lately about
repairs. They seem to be inclined to replace. Especially about repairs.
As much as we love these little guns, I am starting to wonder how long they
will last. I have fiddled and diddled with my 8 magazines and can't wait to
get in some warm weather to try out the mods. Otherwise, I will have a
Single shot R51!
Blackie
Stay on their six buckhammer! If you got to call them once a week, do it. Sad to hear about this happening to another R51 owner, let alone anybody. I wonder if a simple barrel swap would have had you up and going again? Keep at it! Would like to see some pics though.
Quote from: lklawson on October 18, 2017, 08:21:24 AM
Quote from: plunkster on October 17, 2017, 06:04:09 PM
I just "plunk-checked" my reloads and they are perfect... You might have a lemon barrel(?) Not sure if it makes any difference, but I bought mine right after the Gen 2s came out and haven't had any of the problems I have seen people talk about on this forum (after about the first 100 rounds).
I plunk mine too. I actually bought a second barrel so that I could have it in my reloading gear to plunk right away.
The rounds that plunk right end up being so short that they cause feed problems.
It's not too big a deal, just a bit irritating is all. I'll just feed the R51 factory fresh ammo and save my reloads for all of my other 9mm chambered guns.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Kirk,
Is it possible to have a competent gunsmith rerbore the chamber so that the reloads fit properly?"
Kinda above my pay grade.The barrels on ebay are cheap enough to try it on one or two.
Blackie
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on January 19, 2018, 04:31:51 PM
Quote from: lklawson on October 18, 2017, 08:21:24 AM
Quote from: plunkster on October 17, 2017, 06:04:09 PM
I just "plunk-checked" my reloads and they are perfect... You might have a lemon barrel(?) Not sure if it makes any difference, but I bought mine right after the Gen 2s came out and haven't had any of the problems I have seen people talk about on this forum (after about the first 100 rounds).
I plunk mine too. I actually bought a second barrel so that I could have it in my reloading gear to plunk right away.
The rounds that plunk right end up being so short that they cause feed problems.
It's not too big a deal, just a bit irritating is all. I'll just feed the R51 factory fresh ammo and save my reloads for all of my other 9mm chambered guns.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Kirk,
Is it possible to have a competent gunsmith rerbore the chamber so that the reloads fit properly?"
Kinda above my pay grade.The barrels on ebay are cheap enough to try it on one or two.
Blackie
Yes, a competent gunsmith can do mods to the leade/freebore. When I looked at it, it was more than I wanted to spend. That said, the fact that the freebore is at SAAMI minimum doesn't mean that the chamber is out of spec. It's just at minimum. :(
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Another update, this time with pics. I finally spoke to someone in the service department on Wednesday, (Jan 17th 2018) and they were unable to assist me stating they couldn't find any status information about my R51. I was transferred to a "supervisor" and they too were unable to find the status of the R51. I told the supervisor what had transpired and that I was expecting a refund, not replacement/repair. The supervisor told me he was emailing Remington's attorney I had been working with to call me with an update. (I won't reveal the attorney's name as I think that would not help my case.) As of today, I haven't heard back from the attorney and the pistol is still showing a "Parked" status in their on-line repair system. Today, I left a voicemail on the attorney's phone requesting an update on the status and refund. Hopefully I'll hear back. I've attached pictures.
Ouch!
NOT GOOD!
Be thankful that the gun did what it was intended to do in this situation.........blow it out the bottom through the mag and out the bottom of the gun. Did Remington give you grief about having a case stuck in the barrel and sending it in like that? Also, the problem to me looks like crap ammo. I completely understand you being nervous about that particular gun, but if it were me, I would have bought a new barrel and magazine, and kept plugging along with the same gun. But that's just me. Most importantly, glad you are ok!
Not crap ammo, Winchester white box. Thousands of rounds of that stuff through several different 9mm pistols without incident.
Quote from: buckhammer on January 23, 2018, 10:48:55 PM
Not crap ammo, Winchester white box. Thousands of rounds of that stuff through several different 9mm pistols without incident.
Appears to be a factory reload, not new manufacture.
Quote from: buckhammer on January 23, 2018, 10:48:55 PM
Not crap ammo, Winchester white box. Thousands of rounds of that stuff through several different 9mm pistols without incident.
Was it WWB bulk pack or a 50 round box?
Many people have come to believe that WWB is synonymous with "cheap crap ammo" just a small step above imported steel case ammo.
It has been reported that bulk pack boxes (usually loose rounds in a box of 100) are lower quality even for WWB. The speculation is that it is "factory seconds" which fail higher quality checks but still make SAAMI minimum specs.
There is at least one firearms manufacturer I know of which has officially recommended against WWB.
To be clear, I'm not saying that the cause of this malfunction was definitively "crap ammo," I'm just saying that WWB has a pretty poor reputation and saying that the ammo was WWB is not the same as saying that the ammo is high quality. :)
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Kirk,
Thanks for the info on the winchester. It is 50 round boxes. Fortunately that was my last box. I do shoot other practice 9mm ammo so maybe I'll just steer clear of the Win white box.
Quote from: buckhammer on January 24, 2018, 02:20:28 PM
Kirk,
Thanks for the info on the winchester. It is 50 round boxes. Fortunately that was my last box. I do shoot other practice 9mm ammo so maybe I'll just steer clear of the Win white box.
Good idea! :)
They make some crap shotgun ammo as well!
I have seen literally hundreds of split brass on especially 28 ga, and some .410.
What happens is that they try to run the brass case head through the very last forming dies, and its already been too "work hardened" by the previous forming without any anealing.
Thats on their "preimium" shotgun ammo.
AA or Double A loads.
They came to the point where they couldnt make anything but crap guns and have been approaching that same point with ammo for quite a few years now.
And there is some signs that Rem is following in their foot steps. Guns for sure the past few years! So, the R51 startup is kinda par for the course. I had hoped for the better. But I have enjoyed the challenge getting these things running as well.
At least Rem still makes one peice shotgun shells.
That is a bigger deal than it sounds.
Back when Win switched over to separate base wad, multiple piece hulls, they cost at lot of people gun barrels. The base wad would come loose and go part way out into the barrel. Win never admitted a thing and just quietly designed a sort of fix. Then swapped all of their production to being like the Euro trash ammo.
I lost one barrel on an autoloader, but that was from a Federal paper base wad hull.
Another Update. :(
I've called and emailed Remington several times, no information or update. Their attorney replied to my email on 17 Jan apologizing for the delay and said he would look into it. Nothing last week so I thought maybe they were busy with Shot Show (I'm throwing them a bone here...). Today when I called the repair center they said the R51 was at "product services" and they had no information on it, no way to find out, and recommended I call the attorney back for an update. I called the attorney and left yet another voicemail requesting an update. Sad what Remington has come to, this is really just about the worst customer service ever from a firearm manufacturer. They could learn a few lessons about customer service from Ruger. It's bad enough to have a problem with a gun, worse when its a potential liability for the company, but abysmal when they couldn't care less to even follow-up with the customer or respond to repeated requests for a call-back or email update. Very frustrated and I bet you a dollar, a new R51 will just show up in the mail with no explanation. I just want my money back...
What a shame. I am really disappointed one of our long-time, premier gun makers has fallen so far. Really sad. You are more than likely going to be correct about having a new one show up in the mail. Hey, if you do, make it a quick turnaround and I will PM you my address! I know where you can off load it! ;D
Sean,
I agree with you, if Buckhammer wants to get rid of his R51, I would take it
too. But you have first dibs.
I have two R51s and if they are going to be collector's items at least they will
be shooters.
Blackie
Blackie
Sigh, typical newbie. I just figured out what "Big Green" is. I can't believe, after all the negative publicity, they would make such crap mags. Also, and, yes, it may just be me, I have not done well with Winchester White Box with my 51. That's when I switched to 124 grain. Yet I am reading that others have done fine with other 115 bullets from other brands.
Quote from: Aznav on February 26, 2018, 08:34:12 PM
Sigh, typical newbie. I just figured out what "Big Green" is. I can't believe, after all the negative publicity, they would make such crap mags. Also, and, yes, it may just be me, I have not done well with Winchester White Box with my 51. That's when I switched to 124 grain. Yet I am reading that others have done fine with other 115 bullets from other brands.
Aznav,
What we have here is a penny pinching problem. I am sure higher management encouraged the engineers to make a magazine that would be compatible with both 9mm and 40 S&W (there has been rumor that they might introduce a 40 in the future). What they haven't figured out is that you can't make ONE magazine that fits TWO calibers. If you do, bad stuff is going to happen. And it has.
Todd,
I agree about Remington. Although I do have a two calibre pistol with
the same mags. My .22TCM/9MM uses the same mag for both calibres.
:) :)
Blackie
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on February 27, 2018, 10:37:49 AM
Todd,
I agree about Remington. Although I do have a two calibre pistol with
the same mags. My .22TCM/9MM uses the same mag for both calibres.
:) :)
Blackie
yea but the 22tcm was specifically designed to use the same mags and has they fit the same outside dimensions minus the neck area.
Right,
They used the Para 18 mags with a slight difference in the feed lips.
I actually have a pair of the Paras, just took a teeny bit of metal off the feed lips
Cheaper too!.
Blackie