Hello to all,
Bottom line up front: first range session was quite rocky, but I plan to overcome the problems and make the R51 my EDC once I smooth them out.
I am a fan of its predecessor, the Remington 51 in .380, which I have used very often for carry. It is indeed a point & shoot dream!
My goals with the R51, however, are to upgrade caliber, cheapen ammo costs, and then depend on modern engineering and metallurgy to give me a dependable, quick-pointing gun that I don't mind riding hard. I won't abuse it, and the internals will always be well-maintained, but in this heat and humidity I want a good shooter for EDC, not a safe queen.
So, first range session impressions from Monday, 7 August 17, firing approximately 125 rounds WWB FMJ and 50 WWB JHP.
1. Gun is currently unreliable for EDC, but none of the malfunctions were serious mechanical issues that can't be smoothed out with use and care. As you'll note, no problem I encountered was new to members of this forum. (I've already gotten some good ideas to try out.)
2. Summary of Problems
a. FTF, bullet nosedived into base of feed ramp about 12-15 times, often occurring with the second round in the magazine. Sometimes, slide went into battery after hesitation, before I could take immediate action. Others occurred, but then chambered after a brief hesitation, before I could even react. Others, I chambered the round simply by bumping the rear of the slide as basic immediate action drill. Others required magazine removal and remedial action.
b. Commonly, removal of a loaded mag displayed the next cartridge halfway out of the magazine, as though it were carried there by design.
c. Several times, fired cases extracted, didn't eject, and were poised or wedged atop a partially chambered live round. Remedial action was to snap gun to the right, tossing out the empty, then bumping the slide or trying to manually retract it and release it to go into battery. Sometimes, neither method worked and I had to remove the magazine to sort it out.
d. Commonly could not chamber top round in magazine from open chamber position, by "sling-shotting" the slide. Typically, depressing the slide release lever fed the round into battery just fine.
e. Very inconsistent results when chambering one round, topping off mag, and re-inserting it, i.e. making it 7+1. Commonly, the magazine would not seat fully, or only after a struggle.
f. Last but not least, this gun beat my firing hand half to pieces. I seemed to have a problem with the back of the grip frame creeping out of the web between thumb and forefinger--if I continued the shot string instead of re-setting my grip on the gun, it affected POA and pounded the base of my thumb. I'm a lifelong shooter--not mistake-free, but I rarely encounter much of this. I don't experience it at all with my original Remington 51. Firing 125 rounds from two .357 revolvers was far less taxing than firing this 9mm for 175-ish.
3. Good points: accuracy was fine for close-range defensive purposes, but the number and variety of malfunctions prevented me moving the target beyond the 10 yard mark. This gun's sole purpose is EDC, and there's little point in practicing long-range shooting if functioning is a problem.
4. I cleaned the gun thoroughly to remove preservatives, and lubricated the gun freely, but reasonably. I've been shooting 45 years, and that's how I typically break in a new gun. No previous problems like this.
I plan to break it down for cleaning and lube, and will inspect it for signs of wear that indicate "break-in period is necessary." I'll also work on mags by depressing each follower and spring numerous times with a handy implement. Will also leave mags fully-loaded until next range trip.
I'll look CLOSELY to see if there is any mismatch between the barrel and the feed ramp.
Will try to find hotter ammo of similar bullet shape to see if that runs well, or at least will speed the break-in process. But I expect it to run on WWB, once broken-in.
Ideas about a Hogue Handall or other means of firming up my grip? (And cushioning it.)
Any big issues about lube, i.e. wet or dry?
Other known problem areas?
I'm open to suggestion, and I plan to get this gun functioning as designed. In 24 years active-duty Army, I had to carry the standard weapons issued me, and they all worked. And I'm fine with adapting to the gun if necessary, and never had any particular problems.
So far I've had 2 FTFs, both only with +P Remington Saber JHPs.
I will be doing the follower mod soon to the mags to chamber a round with a full mag.
It seems that the issue is with the mags, I've read a few threads on here about some people bending the tab in front of the magazine a little bit out, but it's there to make sure the round doesn't go to far forward and not get fed. I wish for a mag redesign but I don't think it's going to come.
I plan on polishing the mags a little more, and looking under my dissecting microscope to look for burs and polish anything I can.
It did fine with Sig v-crown, 0 issues with that hollow points, and 0 issues with any FMJs. My carry ammo will be Federal HSTs and I plan on getting 500 rounds of that and testing it thoroughly.
My initial experiences with my 2nd gen R51 were even worse than the first gen that I sent back. It did eventually smooth out after a trip back to Remington and some tweaking ideas from other forum members. I do believe that these guns function better when new with hotter ammo. The 124 grain NATO round by Winchester helped my gun and now it eats anything.
Quote from: burgandy25 on August 09, 2017, 08:27:09 PM
So far I've had 2 FTFs, both only with +P Remington Saber JHPs.
I will be doing the follower mod soon to the mags to chamber a round with a full mag.
It seems that the issue is with the mags,
I firmly believe that, too. When manually stripping rounds out of a mag, they hang on each other; and none of my other 9mm pistols do that. Remington really needs to fix their mags, because they're giving the R51 a bad name.
Thanks to all, and additional input & insights welcome.
My plan:
1. Manually cycle a gazillion more times.
2. Strip, clean, inspect for wear spots, burrs, etc., and lube.
3. Run a couple boxes of Win milspec 124g ammo through the gun to see if the extra power will help push the cycling system throuh its paces.
4. Assess, then see if magazines need some work. Before I file or dremel away any material, I'll check back to ensure I understand the procedures.
Any thoughts on why the gun is pounding my hand so badly? The original Rem 51 .380 fits, points & shoots beautifully. The new R51 is supposed to have thise same characteristics, and a number of reviewers confirm it, but others are suffering a pounding like I am. Wonder why it seems to be feast or famine? I've shot a LOT of pistols, and although I suffered some type of discomfort with a number of them due to various reasons, the pounding delivered by the R51 seemed unique. I need to study my grip to see if the grip is too small and I need to beef it up somehow.
Quote from: LouisianaMan on August 10, 2017, 07:36:05 PM
Thanks to all, and additional input & insights welcome.
Any thoughts on why the gun is pounding my hand so badly? The original Rem 51 .380 fits, points & shoots beautifully. The new R51 is supposed to have thise same characteristics, and a number of reviewers confirm it, but others are suffering a pounding like I am. Wonder why it seems to be feast or famine? I've shot a LOT of pistols, and although I suffered some type of discomfort with a number of them due to various reasons, the pounding delivered by the R51 seemed unique. I need to study my grip to see if the grip is too small and I need to beef it up somehow.
There are some aftermarket wood grips that are a bit thicker than the factory grips. See here:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m570.l1311.R6.TR6.TRC1.A0.H1.Xremington+r51+.TRS0&_nkw=remington+r51+grips&_sacat=0
They help some, but not 100%. For me and my large hands, the small grip and the need to compress the grip safety are just plain uncomfortable to shoot with the 9mm recoil.
Shooting gloves certainly would help, but I would probably not be wearing them if the need for self defense were to happen.
Thanks, Dutch, I'll look those up.
I'd thought about the shooting gloves, and may yet do it for practice. My only concern about that solution is that they would make practice sessions much better, but still not train my bare hand to grip the gun firmly and effectively in an SD situation, using muscle memory.
And since I'm a big believer in Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate point shooting, the instinctive grip and body alignment are simply crucial.
Thanks for the eBay link, which I'll check right now. I'll check Pachmayr to see if by any chance they are going to offer a solution. I value the gun's slimness very highly, but can't afford that at the cost of destabilizing my instinctive grip altogether.
Nonetheless, I'm bound and determined to make this work, if practice, experimentation, and mule-headed stubbornness will do the trick :-))) I am such a fan of the original design that I will do my darndest to find a good solution for the new R51.
Quote from: LouisianaMan on August 11, 2017, 01:31:31 PM
Thanks, Dutch, I'll look those up.
Thanks for the eBay link, which I'll check right now. I'll check Pachmayr to see if by any chance they are going to offer a solution. I value the gun's slimness very highly, but can't afford that at the cost of destabilizing my instinctive grip altogether.
Those Ebay grips are from keefersgrips, who is an R51 owner, a member of this forum and has posted here::
http://r51pistol.com/r51-general-discussion/remington-r51-grips/ (http://r51pistol.com/r51-general-discussion/remington-r51-grips/)
I bought a set, and they are good quality and fit perfectly.
Hi DUTCH,
Just ordered a nice-looking set of grips from his eBay site, and will run 100-200 rounds of WWB 9mm NATO 124g through the gun after I mount the new grips. Will finish cleaning it and inspecting for rough spots or burrs between now and then.
Will write up another range report after that next session. If I'm still suffering nose dives into the feed ramp and roughness & hesitation going into battery after that, then I'll check back for "best practices" on magazine modifications, make them, and try again.
As I understand it now, magazines mods are twofold: slightly bend out the front, top edge between the feed lips; remove 3/16" from the bottom of the magazine follower. Sounds like that should make a lot of room for the 7+1 configuration and reduce the spring pressure in the magazine. If that's necessary, sounds like Remington should redesign the mag follower and send free to all owners.
Anyway, I'm bound and determined :-)
Quote from: LouisianaMan on August 14, 2017, 03:21:50 PM
Hi DUTCH,
As I understand it now, magazines mods are twofold: slightly bend out the front, top edge between the feed lips; remove 3/16" from the bottom of the magazine follower. Sounds like that should make a lot of room for the 7+1 configuration and reduce the spring pressure in the magazine.
Shortening the legs on the follower will not change the spring pressure, but it will allow for easier 7+1 loading. The legs on the bottom of the follower straddle the top of the spring.
Got a set of wooden grips from Keefersgrips, per Dutch's advice, and they fit, look, and feel great! Gun definitely sits more naturally and comfortably in my hand. Have yet to range-test it, though, so will report back.
Did have a second brief range session in the meantime, though, using OEM grips and same ammo as before: WWB ball and JHP. Plus a friend tossed in a few mags worth of some miscellaneous ammo he had on hand.
Things went MUCH smoother, although I still encountered one nose-dive of 2nd round and a couple of weird loading experiences.
First couple of times I inserted the mag with the slide in battery. It gave me some trouble locking the mag into place, and resisted first 2-3 attempts to chamber a round by racking the slide. I struggled to pull the slide back, released it, and the top cartridge in the mag was not chambered. Had to struggle to get the slide back another 1/2" or so, and then it picked up the round and fed it.
I went back to inserting the mag with slide locked back and hitting slide release, and things went fine. I also "slingshotted" the slide a couple of times to release it, but that went less smoothly & not as positively.
Those were the only problems in about 100 rounds, though, which was highly encouraging.
Before my initial range session, I'd sprayed the brand-new gun with action cleaner, wiped and brushed it, lubed, and went shooting with the poor results I described in an earlier post.
Prior to this second session, I had sprayed the entire gun with Ballistol, let it soak 2-3 days, then toothbrushed and wiped thoroughly with a rag, and relubed with Ballistol.
Afterwards, I cleaned it thoroughly with Ballistol and then relubed very carefully with Lubrikit grease, ensuring I got any spots on slide and frame that were showing any wear. Have left it with slide locked back and all 3 mags fully loaded for a few days, and before long will take it out and try it again. This time, however, I'll use some Winchester NATO spec ball ammo, to see if its higher pressures will run the gun more positively.
So, I've fiddled with five variables at once: recoil spring left compressed; mag springs left compressed; mags disassembled, cleaned and lubed; and grease instead of oil used as lubricant. Variable 5 will be the higher-pressure ammo. I know that violates the ol' scientific method, but I'm trying to crash through the gun's likely problems all at once if I can.
Next time out, I'll have mags marked and log any problems with each one. If it seems to run like a top with the NATO 124g ball, as I'm hoping, then I'll try some Remington UMC FMJ 115g, some Rem 115g +P 115g HTP JHPs, and the WWB 115g JHPs.
So, I'll have a lot to report on next time. I'm bound and determined to make this gun reliable for EDC, and hope it's about ready. We'll see.
PS: gun shot more comfortably this time, which means my initial problems with feeling pounded by it were actually caused by the other guns I'd fired before getting to it.
Quote from: LouisianaMan on August 09, 2017, 06:59:59 PM
Hello to all,
Bottom line up front: first range session was quite rocky, but I plan to overcome the problems and make the R51 my EDC once I smooth them out.
I am a fan of its predecessor, the Remington 51 in .380, which I have used very often for carry. It is indeed a point & shoot dream!
My goals with the R51, however, are to upgrade caliber, cheapen ammo costs, and then depend on modern engineering and metallurgy to give me a dependable, quick-pointing gun that I don't mind riding hard. I won't abuse it, and the internals will always be well-maintained, but in this heat and humidity I want a good shooter for EDC, not a safe queen.
So, first range session impressions from Monday, 7 August 17, firing approximately 125 rounds WWB FMJ and 50 WWB JHP.
1. Gun is currently unreliable for EDC, but none of the malfunctions were serious mechanical issues that can't be smoothed out with use and care. As you'll note, no problem I encountered was new to members of this forum. (I've already gotten some good ideas to try out.)
2. Summary of Problems
a. FTF, bullet nosedived into base of feed ramp about 12-15 times, often occurring with the second round in the magazine. Sometimes, slide went into battery after hesitation, before I could take immediate action. Others occurred, but then chambered after a brief hesitation, before I could even react. Others, I chambered the round simply by bumping the rear of the slide as basic immediate action drill. Others required magazine removal and remedial action.
b. Commonly, removal of a loaded mag displayed the next cartridge halfway out of the magazine, as though it were carried there by design.
c. Several times, fired cases extracted, didn't eject, and were poised or wedged atop a partially chambered live round. Remedial action was to snap gun to the right, tossing out the empty, then bumping the slide or trying to manually retract it and release it to go into battery. Sometimes, neither method worked and I had to remove the magazine to sort it out.
d. Commonly could not chamber top round in magazine from open chamber position, by "sling-shotting" the slide. Typically, depressing the slide release lever fed the round into battery just fine.
e. Very inconsistent results when chambering one round, topping off mag, and re-inserting it, i.e. making it 7+1. Commonly, the magazine would not seat fully, or only after a struggle.
f. Last but not least, this gun beat my firing hand half to pieces. I seemed to have a problem with the back of the grip frame creeping out of the web between thumb and forefinger--if I continued the shot string instead of re-setting my grip on the gun, it affected POA and pounded the base of my thumb. I'm a lifelong shooter--not mistake-free, but I rarely encounter much of this. I don't experience it at all with my original Remington 51. Firing 125 rounds from two .357 revolvers was far less taxing than firing this 9mm for 175-ish.
3. Good points: accuracy was fine for close-range defensive purposes, but the number and variety of malfunctions prevented me moving the target beyond the 10 yard mark. This gun's sole purpose is EDC, and there's little point in practicing long-range shooting if functioning is a problem.
4. I cleaned the gun thoroughly to remove preservatives, and lubricated the gun freely, but reasonably. I've been shooting 45 years, and that's how I typically break in a new gun. No previous problems like this.
I plan to break it down for cleaning and lube, and will inspect it for signs of wear that indicate "break-in period is necessary." I'll also work on mags by depressing each follower and spring numerous times with a handy implement. Will also leave mags fully-loaded until next range trip.
I'll look CLOSELY to see if there is any mismatch between the barrel and the feed ramp.
Will try to find hotter ammo of similar bullet shape to see if that runs well, or at least will speed the break-in process. But I expect it to run on WWB, once broken-in.
Ideas about a Hogue Handall or other means of firming up my grip? (And cushioning it.)
Any big issues about lube, i.e. wet or dry?
Other known problem areas?
I'm open to suggestion, and I plan to get this gun functioning as designed. In 24 years active-duty Army, I had to carry the standard weapons issued me, and they all worked. And I'm fine with adapting to the gun if necessary, and never had any particular problems.
Louisiana Man,
How do you plan to upgrade the caliber? Just curious, as you have a 9MM +P weapon as is.
As to the mags, many of us have removed the mag sollower and taken 1 to 3 16ths off each leg. It makes a world of difference, If you decide to try it, just start with one mag.
My mags all show the next round sliding forward when I remove the mag. So far it has not caused any problems for me.
As to para c., if the problem persists, It might be time to go to Remington.
Where was your pistol manufactured? Could you positively have a Gen I?
The slides on the Gen II have a thicker base plate.
This review may be of assistance to you.
Good luck, Blackie
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/20/review-remington-r-51-gen-2-1000-round-test/
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on August 24, 2017, 11:17:58 AM
Louisiana Man,
How do you plan to upgrade the caliber? Just curious, as you have a 9MM +P weapon as is.
As to the mags, many of us have removed the mag sollower and taken 1 to 3 16ths off each leg. It makes a world of difference, If you decide to try it, just start with one mag.
My mags all show the next round sliding forward when I remove the mag. So far it has not caused any problems for me.
As to para c., if the problem persists, It might be time to go to Remington.
Where was your pistol manufactured? Could you positively have a Gen I?
The slides on the Gen II have a thicker base plate.
This review may be of assistance to you.
Good luck, Blackie
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/20/review-remington-r-51-gen-2-1000-round-test/
I do believe he means that the 9mm firearm he now has is an upgrade to the .380 R51 previously used.
Quote from: russc2542 on September 05, 2017, 12:52:23 PM
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on August 24, 2017, 11:17:58 AM
Louisiana Man,
How do you plan to upgrade the caliber? Just curious, as you have a 9MM +P weapon as is.
As to the mags, many of us have removed the mag sollower and taken 1 to 3 16ths off each leg. It makes a world of difference, If you decide to try it, just start with one mag.
My mags all show the next round sliding forward when I remove the mag. So far it has not caused any problems for me.
As to para c., if the problem persists, It might be time to go to Remington.
Where was your pistol manufactured? Could you positively have a Gen I?
The slides on the Gen II have a thicker base plate.
This review may be of assistance to you.
Good luck, Blackie
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/20/review-remington-r-51-gen-2-1000-round-test/
I do believe he means that the 9mm firearm he now has is an upgrade to the .380 R51 previously used.
OOPS!
Blackie
Blackie,
No sweat, G.I., I didn't write that too clearly. I graded Military Academy cadets for 6 years and would have gigged 'em for "ambiguity/unclear antecedent" if they wrote what I did! Oh well, guess I owe 'em 10 push-ups!
PS: I'll only pay up if one of my old cadets calls me on it in this thread!
PPS: will give my latest R51 update later today. Running MUCH better, but still not right. Based on other posts I've read on this forum, I requested Remington to supply me replacement magazines with the new part number. Did it only last night, though, so have to give them some reaction time.