My R51 is a little bit of a picky eater lately. I've been reloading with 115gr. coated HC from Missouri Bullet Company. Seated to 1.08" COAL, per manufacturer spec, and stoked with 4.0gr of Titegroup. These are accurate and feed reliably in several other guns but don't like to feed well in my R51. Turns out it's a tight chamber. I got a FCD for 9 and that helps if feed the chamber but the gun is still picky about eating these. Dead trigger issues and nose up during feed issues.
I'm planning on using up the remaining 115gr. round nose HC coated for shooting in other guns and switching to the 125gr. cone HC coated. Probably have to bump up the charge to the 4.2 or even 4.3 (max).
My R51 likes most factory new FMJ and seems to really like Critical Duty so I'm looking to get a load/shape similar to Critical Duty (without buying CD bullets!).
(http://missouribullet.com/cw3/assets/product_full/ht_9cone.jpg)
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Quote from: lklawson on April 26, 2017, 11:59:32 AM
My R51 is a little bit of a picky eater lately. I've been reloading with 115gr. coated HC from Missouri Bullet Company. Seated to 1.08" COAL, per manufacturer spec, and stoked with 4.0gr of Titegroup. These are accurate and feed reliably in several other guns but don't like to feed well in my R51. Turns out it's a tight chamber. I got a FCD for 9 and that helps if feed the chamber but the gun is still picky about eating these. Dead trigger issues and nose up during feed issues.
I'm planning on using up the remaining 115gr. round nose HC coated for shooting in other guns and switching to the 125gr. cone HC coated. Probably have to bump up the charge to the 4.2 or even 4.3 (max).
My R51 likes most factory new FMJ and seems to really like Critical Duty so I'm looking to get a load/shape similar to Critical Duty (without buying CD bullets!).
(http://missouribullet.com/cw3/assets/product_full/ht_9cone.jpg)
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Kirk,
Although reloading is above my pay grade, i wonder why our R51s change their appetites on ammo. I have approximately 2000 rounds through my
R51, and it still eats whatever I feed it. including whatever is in the bottom of my range bag. Could it be that the R51s do not like reloads? But, like I say
that is above my pay grade. Perhaps it is the difference between store bought and reload components? If I can find somebody who reloads 9MM
maybe I can buy some from them and check it out. If I do, I will let you know.
Just a thought.
Blackie
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on April 26, 2017, 04:42:13 PM
Kirk,
Although reloading is above my pay grade, i wonder why our R51s change their appetites on ammo.
I sent mine in for servicing. The firing pin was jammed in the Pedersen Block. I believe it was just a shaving of brass or copper which slipped in and jammed up the channel. I could have drove out the pin myself and cleaned it but I figured, "it's still under warranty, might as well let a pro do it." In retrospect I should have done it myself. Hindsight. To Remington's credit, they just flat out replaced the gun instead of fixing the obstruction. I'd rather they fixed the obstruction, but whatever.
My new R51 is more of a picky eater that the former. The new one likes factory ammo just fine, but kinda hates my reloads. As I wrote, part of the issue is that it has a very tight chamber. It's within SAAMI spec but I have to use a Factory Crimp Die (FCD) to ensure that the taper crimp is just right. If I us a Seating Die to crimp, by the time I get it tight enough, it turns into almost a roll crimp, which sometimes won't allow the cartridge to head-space on the shoulder properly. That's a bad thing in 9mm. :(
A more experienced buddy is recommending that I gently polish the chamber.
QuoteI have approximately 2000 rounds through my
R51, and it still eats whatever I feed it. including whatever is in the bottom of my range bag.
I haven't tried steel cased ammo in this R51. My reloads cost me about 70-75% of what factory new ammo does, even the cheap, crappy, ammo. They run 100% in the other guns I've tried, even a Taurus PT111 G2.
QuoteCould it be that the R51s do not like reloads?
It could be. But remanufactured ammo has to fall within certain specifications to be safe and usable. The issue could just be "tolerance stacking" again. That's what my last issue with the R51 and my reloads turned out to be.
To quote myself from a post I made on another forum describing this issue:
Spent more time out reloading last night and have concluded that, yes, the biggest factor is that the chamber is tight. It IS within spec, but it is on the tight end of the spec.
First thing I did was take two of the MBC cartridges and seat them down to 1.08. I had deliberately made sure that the crimp wasn't too hard when I made these so I thought I could get away with it for two of them. No problem seating them 0.02 deeper. I plunked both. In both cases, the still were stiff in the chamber and required the extractor to hand remove. I couldn't just tip the bbl up and have them drop free. But, at the same time, neither were in quite as tight, in my estimation. OK, so the MBC recommendation of seating depth is a part of it, but not the biggest.
Next I put my calipers on the case mouth of finished cartridges. In the MBC cartridges, all of them measured to .380. This is the SAAMI spec for case mouth*. Again, this is something that I deliberately chose when I set up the die because I didn't want to over-crimp. Next I measured the case mouth for the 3 other which do not stick, the Hornady Critical Duty, the PMC frangible, and my earlier reloads. All of them measured at .375-.376. Again, all of these plunk just fine in both the R51 bbl and the PT111 bbl.
So I started cranking down the crimp. Eventually, I got the crimped case mouth to .376 but I don't really like it. It's not a roll crimp, but it is starting to roll in. When I plunked the cartridges with the new crimp, they felt like they were headspacing on the mouth so I don't believe there's a danger. But I don't like it. (https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kIUcJZTNEPc/U5j8oNH-PaI/AAAAAAAADcQ/3p-N-LzXJLA/s912/SAAMI%25209mm.JPG)
So my R51 chamber is within SAAMI spec but it's on the tight side. My reloads were within SAAMI spec but they were at max diameter. Add those together and you get tolerance stacking which causes in-chamber sticks and jams.
QuoteBut, like I say that is above my pay grade. Perhaps it is the difference between store bought and reload components?
Well, it is true that some bullets are sized slightly different. They can range between .356 and .358. This is usually a benefit to the reloader so that he can slug his barrel to get its exact inner diameter and buy the best fitting bullets for best accuracy.
QuoteIf I can find somebody who reloads 9MM maybe I can buy some from them and check it out. If I do, I will let you know.
Just a thought.
Blackie
In order to sell ammunition you built, either "factory new" or "reloaded," you need a license. Don't go to a friend and offer to buy rebuilt ammo from him. It's illegal unless he's licensed. You could offer to buy his components (bullets, powder, primer, etc.) or work out a trade, but if he makes a "profit" and doesn't have a license, then it's illegal.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Quote from: lklawson on April 27, 2017, 09:36:01 AM
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on April 26, 2017, 04:42:13 PM
Kirk,
Although reloading is above my pay grade, i wonder why our R51s change their appetites on ammo.
I sent mine in for servicing. The firing pin was jammed in the Pedersen Block. I believe it was just a shaving ob brass or copper which slipped in and jammed up the channel. I could have drove out the pin myself and cleaned it but I figured, "it's still under warranty, might as well let a pro do it." In retrospect I should have done it myself. Hindsite. To Remington's credit, they just flat out replaced the gun instead of fixing the obstruction. I'd rather they fixed the obstruction, but whatever.
My new R51 is more of a picky eater that the former. The new one likes factory ammo just fine, but kinda hates my reloads. As I wrote, part of the issue is that it has a very tight chamber. It's within SAAMI spec but I have to use a Factory Crimp Die (FCD) to ensure that the taper crimp is just right. If I us a Seating Die to crimp, by the time I get it tight enough, it turns into almost a roll crimp, which sometimes won't allow the cartridge to head-space on the shoulder properly. That's a bad thing in 9mm. :(
A more experienced buddy is recommending that I gently polish the chamber.
QuoteI have approximately 2000 rounds through my
R51, and it still eats whatever I feed it. including whatever is in the bottom of my range bag.
I haven't tried steel cased ammo in this R51. My reloads cost me about 70-75% of what factory new ammo does, even the cheap, crappy, ammo. They run 100% in the other guns I've tried, even a Taurus PT111 G2.
QuoteCould it be that the R51s do not like reloads?
It could be. But remanufactured ammo has to fall within certain specifications to be safe and usable. The issue could just be "tolerance stacking" again. That's what my last issue with the R51 and my reloads turned out to be.
To quote myself from a post I made on another forum describing this issue:
Spent more time out reloading last night and have concluded that, yes, the biggest factor is that the chamber is tight. It IS within spec, but it is on the tight end of the spec.
First thing I did was take two of the MBC cartridges and seat them down to 1.08. I had deliberately made sure that the crimp wasn't too hard when I made these so I thought I could get away with it for two of them. No problem seating them 0.02 deeper. I plunked both. In both cases, the still were stiff in the chamber and required the extractor to hand remove. I couldn't just tip the bbl up and have them drop free. But, at the same time, neither were in quite as tight, in my estimation. OK, so the MBC recommendation of seating depth is a part of it, but not the biggest.
Next I put my calipers on the case mouth of finished cartridges. In the MBC cartridges, all of them measured to .380. This is the SAAMI spec for case mouth*. Again, this is something that I deliberately chose when I set up the die because I didn't want to over-crimp. Next I measured the case mouth for the 3 other which do not stick, the Hornady Critical Duty, the PMC frangible, and my earlier reloads. All of them measured at .375-.376. Again, all of these plunk just fine in both the R51 bbl and the PT111 bbl.
So I started cranking down the crimp. Eventually, I got the crimped case mouth to .376 but I don't really like it. It's not a roll crimp, but it is starting to roll in. When I plunked the cartridges with the new crimp, they felt like they were headspacing on the mouth so I don't believe there's a danger. But I don't like it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-kIUcJZTNEPc/U5j8oNH-PaI/AAAAAAAADcQ/3p-N-LzXJLA/s912/SAAMI%25209mm.JPG)
So my R51 chamber is within SAAMI spec but it's on the tight side. My reloads were within SAAMI spec but they were at max diameter. Add those together and you get tolerance stacking which causes in-chamber sticks and jams.
QuoteBut, like I say that is above my pay grade. Perhaps it is the difference between store bought and reload components?
Well, it is true that some bullets are sized slightly different. They can range between .356 and .358. This is usually a benefit to the reloader so that he can slug his barrel to get its exact inner diameter and buy the best fitting bullets for best accuracy.
QuoteIf I can find somebody who reloads 9MM maybe I can buy some from them and check it out. If I do, I will let you know.
Just a thought.
Blackie
In order to sell ammunition you built, either "factory new" or "reloaded," you need a license. Don't go to a friend and offer to buy rebuilt ammo from him. It's illegal unless he's licensed. You could offer to buy his components (bullets, powder, primer, etc.) or work out a trade, but if he makes a "profit" and doesn't have a license, then it's illegal.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Kirk,
Thanks for the reloading lesson, and for the advice. I never knew that about reloading. On a new note, have you thought about one of the barrels from Ebay?
Can't beat the price. $20.99!
My gun still performs flawlessly since the mag mods. I also empty the gun every morning and rack it 20 times, maybe it helps it I don't know. If it is not a
1911, I am at a loss most times. I have never been without a 1911 for the last 65 years or so.
Blackie
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-REMINGTON-R-51-FACTORY-STEEL-BARREL-9mm-LUGER-P-R51-GENUINE-OEM-/351113481081
Quote from: 1911SHOOTER on April 27, 2017, 10:26:36 AM
Kirk,
Thanks for the reloading lesson, and for the advice. I never knew that about reloading. On a new note, have you thought about one of the barrels from Ebay?
Can't beat the price. $20.99!
My gun still performs flawlessly since the mag mods. I also empty the gun every morning and rack it 20 times, maybe it helps it I don't know. If it is not a
1911, I am at a loss most times. I have never been without a 1911 for the last 65 years or so.
Blackie
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-REMINGTON-R-51-FACTORY-STEEL-BARREL-9mm-LUGER-P-R51-GENUINE-OEM-/351113481081
I've been thinking about it.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
FWIW, I pretty much only shoot my own reloads and have not had any problems. I have not tried any of the coated bullets yet, and I mainly use 115gr plated RN Berrys with 4.2gr of Bullsey and a COAL of 1.135 and CCI primers. I also use a factory crimp die that sets the mouth at .377. They all plunk fine and feed fine. They average 1055fps with a ES of 43.
I just thought to mention that I wouldn't buy reloads from someone you don't know/trust. Too easy to get a accidental double load if a person wasn't paying attention. Well that's my thought about it.
So is your R51 part of the 2nd generation? I just got mine this week from Remington, and hoping I won't have issues with it. Already I found my slide locks up and with some shaking it would let me finally rack it. After playing with it I seems to be sliding okay. Now have to take it to the range and test different ammo through it.
Quote from: Texas-Mark on April 28, 2017, 01:21:02 PM
FWIW, I pretty much only shoot my own reloads and have not had any problems. I have not tried any of the coated bullets yet, and I mainly use 115gr plated RN Berrys with 4.2gr of Bullsey and a COAL of 1.135 and CCI primers. I also use a factory crimp die that sets the mouth at .377. They all plunk fine and feed fine. They average 1055fps with a ES of 43.
I'm planning on tinkering with one of the mags (so that I can have a control) and switching the bullet.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Quote from: Ryo on April 28, 2017, 01:28:39 PMSo is your R51 part of the 2nd generation?
Yes.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Interesting, mine had no problems with my reloads except the minimum charge ones, even then, no problems just felt every little movement of and in the slide because it was so slow. I'll try to remember to take some measurements tonight and see how they compare.
Quote from: russc2542 on May 01, 2017, 11:47:51 AM
Interesting, mine had no problems with my reloads except the minimum charge ones, even then, no problems just felt every little movement of and in the slide because it was so slow. I'll try to remember to take some measurements tonight and see how they compare.
I had a Gen 1 which had problems. I sent it back to Rem and got a R1. When the Gen 2 came out, I bought one. As I wrote above (http://r51pistol.com/r51-general-discussion/reloading-ammunition-for-the-r51/msg1334/#msg1334 (http://r51pistol.com/r51-general-discussion/reloading-ammunition-for-the-r51/msg1334/#msg1334)), the firing pin started jamming. It had to have been either a kinked firing pin spring or an obstruction in the firing pin channel (copper, brass, lead, carbon... take your pick). In any case, I could have driven out the pin and cleared the obstruction myself but I figured that because it was still under warranty, it made more sense to let a pro do that. Instead of just clearing the channel or replacing the Pedersen Block, Remington replaced the whole darn gun. I wish they'd just cleared the channel but I can't blame them for replacing the gun. <shrug> The new one (my second Gen 2) is more picky about reloads than its predecessor.
I'm going to try different bullets, will likely tweak a Gen 2 magazine, and might polish the chamber.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Quote from: lklawson on May 01, 2017, 02:13:30 PM
Remington replaced the whole darn gun. I wish they'd just cleared the channel but I can't blame them for replacing the gun.
Why can't you blame them for replacing the whole gun? I would!
Why would they do that? Remington must believe it is cheaper for them to give you a whole new gun than figure out what was wrong with your old one.
You certainly maintain a good attitude regarding the R51. If I send mine in and the new one they sent me back didn't work as good as the first (given the history of this particular firearm), I'd be very upset. But then I don't have the knowledge or patience to tinker with parts or reloads until I obtain reliable performance.
It was also my hope that Remington would introduce unannounced manufacturing improvements that would increase out-of-the-box reliability. That is to say, I hoped that newer built firearms would function better than the initial Mod 2's produced, but you appear to have an example to the contrary; unless of course you need to put another 200-1000 rounds through this one to break it in too.
Quote from: SCurmudgeon on May 02, 2017, 11:09:16 AM
Quote from: lklawson on May 01, 2017, 02:13:30 PM
Remington replaced the whole darn gun. I wish they'd just cleared the channel but I can't blame them for replacing the gun.
Why can't you blame them for replacing the whole gun? I would!
Because I believe that it cost them more money to replace the gun.
QuoteWhy would they do that?
To try to make me a happy customer as quickly as possible. Giving me a new pistol gets a pistol into my hands far faster than repairing the former. My happiness as a customer was apparently more important to them than the difference in cost between a new pistol and repairing the former.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
LEE is making a new 9mm die that is .002 to .003 inches tighter that addresses this problem. I will be getting one myself.
The problem with the 9mm Luger round is that the expansion that occurs, especially at the base where it is widest, does not get resized in most resizing dies. The new die also allows the complete resizing down past the base. I know from personal experience that my 9 mm reloads that shoot without problems in my Springfield Range Officer will not even chambered in my friends expensive and accurate automatic. He has a tighter chamber. It does fine with new factory ammo. When he shot one of mine it would not feed all the way and had to be knocked back out of the barrel with a squib rod and a hammer.
Keep in mind that barrels with tight chambers that are in spec., shoot more accurately than looser barrels that are also within specifications.
Quote from: Ray R on May 03, 2017, 01:57:32 AM
LEE is making a new 9mm die that is .002 to .003 inches tighter that addresses this problem. I will be getting one myself.
The problem with the 9mm Luger round is that the expansion that occurs, especially at the base where it is widest, does not get resized in most resizing dies. The new die also allows the complete resizing down past the base. I know from personal experience that my 9 mm reloads that shoot without problems in my Springfield Range Officer will not even chambered in my friends expensive and accurate automatic. He has a tighter chamber. It does fine with new factory ammo. When he shot one of mine it would not feed all the way and had to be knocked back out of the barrel with a squib rod and a hammer.
That's awesome... but that sucks.
It's great that they're making an "improved" die set.
It sucks that if I want to take advantage of it, I have to buy a new die set. I already spring for the 9mm Luger FCD. :(
Do you have a link?
QuoteKeep in mind that barrels with tight chambers that are in spec., shoot more accurately than looser barrels that are also within specifications.
Yup.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Quote from: lklawson on May 04, 2017, 01:42:40 PMIt sucks that if I want to take advantage of it, I have to buy a new die set. I already spring for the 9mm Luger FCD. :(
Do you have a link?
No need for a complete new set and you can still use the FCD
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/386755/lee-undersized-carbide-sizing-die-9mm-luger
Thanks. :)
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
I was surprised to see the dimensions that you use to load your ammo to, especially the case mouth dimension. I know the .380 spec is within the acceptable tolerance but is the maximum diameter acceptable. The reloading manual I read before starting reloading told how to set the taper crimp on the cartridge this way: First they recommend sorting brass since case wall thickness varies, and I do that. Next is to measure the case wall thickness, and the bullet's diameter. So, if you are using a .356 bullet and the case wall thickness is .010, the outside diameter of the crimp should be .375. That is the bullet diameter added to two times the wall thickness since you are measuring two walls and crimping the round .001 results in the total of .375. Try loading a dummy round without primer or powder and then pull the bullet out of the case to see how much indentation is shown on the bullet to ensure you are not over crimping. You should be able to see only very slight evidence of bullet compression. I do this for every set of ammo I load, especially when different case manufactures are being used. The crimp does nothing to hold the bullet, case tension does that and is determined by case resizing. Over belling the case mouth too much will cause problems seating or crimping the bullet or too deep will lose the tension. I have used this method for all my reloads and they work in every gun I have. The only problem I ever had was with some coated RN bullets that were .358 diameter and the quality sucked. The bullets were very inconsistent in size and weight, had slag on the bases of some, and the ogive was so fat that I had to seat them deeper than recommended. I loaded these to shoot in Beretta pistols since the bore size in about all of them is .3575 and the plated bullets, cast bullets, or lead bullets should be at least .001 larger than bore size.
I hope this will help with the chambering problems with your reloads.
DanOh
Quote from: DanOh on May 06, 2017, 07:23:03 AM
First they recommend sorting brass since case wall thickness varies, and I do that. Next is to measure the case wall thickness, and the bullet's diameter. So, if you are using a .356 bullet and the case wall thickness is .010, the outside diameter of the crimp should be .375. That is the bullet diameter added to two times the wall thickness since you are measuring two walls and crimping the round .001 results in the total of .375.
I personally don't try to overcomplicate things like some reloading manuals do. When I started reloading, I basically measured a bunch of factory ammo and came up with an average of .377 for the case mouth. I just don't have time do be sorting brass. As I noted earlier, when I chrono my reloads I typically get a ES of 47 and SD of 12 or less in a string of 25-30. They are all pretty accurate too. I just don't think the extra work is worth the minimal return. Now if I was shooting completion or something, then I might be more picky. And as I mentioned I use factory crimp dies because IMO it just makes things a lot easier and more consistent.
I do use a case gauge on every one of my reloads instead of plunking in the barrel. I have yet to have one that fits the gauge, that does not also plunk in the barrel of any of my guns.
(http://i67.tinypic.com/262lb8y.jpg)
Much like Texas I use the book plus use factory loads as "not to exceed"
I've ran approx. 250 reloads thru my new 51 without incident.
I use the case gauge twice, once after depriming/resizing and then after factory crimp. Not that is should matter but I use Lee dies. I load 4.6 of HP38 (medium load per the book). 115 plated round nose. Actually, I was amazed, as I am new to reloading and the gun was new as well. Only 50 factory shot before the reloads.
Rog
One thing I have seen on several gun forums is some people who think that a slew of reloading manual is a must. I actually bought one only to find out it did not even have the particular bullet or powder that I was using. And I have seen different information in different manuals.
Nearly every powder manufacturer (and even bullet manufacturer) lists load data on their web site now, so no real need for a book. Plus there are plenty of youtube videos to get people started. Of course one should not just watch just one, as they are not always correct. But if you watch enough of them, it becomes more obvious how to do things the right way.
The same goes for load weights. I would not go with just one recipe that I found randomly with Google, but if I look for let's say Berry's 115 gr plated RN and Bullseye powder and find 20 different people using 4.1 to 4.3 grains, then I think it's a fair assessment to start with 4.1 and go from there. Maybe even 4.0 if one wants to play it extra safe. But yet some people will say it's foolish to use any load data found that way.
The only thing I would recommend to anyone starting out with reloading is to plan to invest in a chronograph. IMO, its the best way to evaluate things. Not absolutely necessary if you are loading on the light side, but if you start pushing things it is.
Having more than one manual, I agree that having one when the Mfrs post stuff themselves is kind of redundant because, yes, they tend to have holes in the data for what I have on hand >:(
I also got around to measuring and my R51's also right at the spec for 9mm like others have said.
late reply,
I have shot about 200 reloads thru my R51 without issue. Used brass, 115RN-plated FMP bullets (Frontier Metal Processing)(double struck). 4.6 of HP38. I was holding my breath but every round went down range and ejected.
I had some pressure problems with the first few I did. It seemed like the slide was reciprocating harder than normal. I narrowed it down to crimping. Turns out, my die was over crimping causing excess pressure. Something pretty simple, but maybe not so obvious. Ever since I got that fixed, I have had great success.
Just to add my 2 cents... I load Xtreme plated 115 gr bullets over 4.7 gr of W231 and a COAL of 1.15" and get about 1070 fps. Haven't had any malfunctions with this combo... I also use the same load in my other 9mms (Luger, Walther P1, and Kahr CM9).