R51 Magazine lips

[Zenshot]

Hey gang
So here is the latest.. Remington actually sent me two new mags...they weren't off the rack in blister packs...hand pulled.   I checked the specs ..13 coils to the mag spring and what do you know...the lips are exactly 0.351. Front and back, perfectly parallel.
Went to the range on Tuesday and put a 100 rounds through each without a single hiccup...
So,maybe, just maybe they were listening when I was talking to them...
Also I did not modify the tab retaining the follower on these..shot all fmg that day, so I don't know if hp rounds will hang on them...next trip to the range I'll see.
Y'all take care and have a great 4th
John

I'd be willing to bet that these are the correct specs for the mags and the 3rd party manufacturer of the mags really blew it when producing them.

[David]

This in the comments section of the hrfunk video on the R51 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4HUNEfr-j0&feature=youtu.be
by user Big10.  Re-posted because what we have been hearing from Remington and others is to remove a coil from the spring.  The following discussion seems to make sense and suggests the spring isn't strong enough. 
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cut/paste follows:

Big10

The problem is NOT that the mag springs are too strong. The symptoms your gun is showing is often too WEAK of a magazine spring. The round is escaping the control of the magazine under recoil (inertia of the round tries to keep the round in the same position -- an object at rest tends to stay at rest) while the gun and magazine are moving backwards. But the pressure of the spring is too WEAK to hold the round in the magazine. When the the round pops free of the mag, it will be IN FRONT of the extractor hook. The next round below comes up to the top of magazine, pushes the escaped round up into the path of the slide on return, causing the bind between slide, round, and barrel . This is true for both the "weird horizontal pinched round" and the "stove piped" round. if you remove a round or two from the mag, it won't have the problem since the spring has less weight of the rounds to push up, keeping sufficient pressure on the top round.

Three points: (1) were any of these jammed rounds UNDER the extractor when you looked? I'm guessing "no". And if so, then they were released from the magazine BEFORE the disconnector rail of the slide pushed the round out of the magazine. (2) If you download the magazine, does it ever jam like this? A downloaded magazine is often used to prevent jams when magazine springs are weak (think Viet Nam and M16 -- 18 rounds vs 20 rounds.) (3) The old axiom: first round or last round of a magazine that jams a gun is a weak magazine spring issue; the fix is to install a stronger spring! Want to reproduce the issue in another gun? Got a 1911? disassemble the mag and cut a couple of coils from the mag spring. Reassemble and watch the same jams magically appear. Quod Erat Demostrandum.

[springfield art]

Someone mentioned recently they had better results using 124 gr. ammo. I just went through a box of 124, with no hang ups whatsoever. But, I had no issues in 300 rds. of standard 115 gr., either. My Huntsville seems to shoot reliably, except it hits so low I had to file the front sight down to raise the impact point. The mag springs are really firm; I need to remember to take the mag loading tool to the range! Looking to put more ammo downrange! Wish 124 gr. was easier to find! I like hardball, no sense in spending extra for fancy jacketed, etc., if all I'm doing is punching paper.

[Zenshot]

This in the comments section of the hrfunk video on the R51 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4HUNEfr-j0&feature=youtu.be
by user Big10.  Re-posted because what we have been hearing from Remington and others is to remove a coil from the spring.  The following discussion seems to make sense and suggests the spring isn't strong enough. 
----
cut/paste follows:

Big10

The problem is NOT that the mag springs are too strong. The symptoms your gun is showing is often too WEAK of a magazine spring. The round is escaping the control of the magazine under recoil (inertia of the round tries to keep the round in the same position -- an object at rest tends to stay at rest) while the gun and magazine are moving backwards. But the pressure of the spring is too WEAK to hold the round in the magazine. When the the round pops free of the mag, it will be IN FRONT of the extractor hook. The next round below comes up to the top of magazine, pushes the escaped round up into the path of the slide on return, causing the bind between slide, round, and barrel . This is true for both the "weird horizontal pinched round" and the "stove piped" round. if you remove a round or two from the mag, it won't have the problem since the spring has less weight of the rounds to push up, keeping sufficient pressure on the top round.


Three points: (1) were any of these jammed rounds UNDER the extractor when you looked? I'm guessing "no". And if so, then they were released from the magazine BEFORE the disconnector rail of the slide pushed the round out of the magazine. (2) If you download the magazine, does it ever jam like this? A downloaded magazine is often used to prevent jams when magazine springs are weak (think Viet Nam and M16 -- 18 rounds vs 20 rounds.) (3) The old axiom: first round or last round of a magazine that jams a gun is a weak magazine spring issue; the fix is to install a stronger spring! Want to reproduce the issue in another gun? Got a 1911? disassemble the mag and cut a couple of coils from the mag spring. Reassemble and watch the same jams magically appear. Quod Erat Demostrandum.

Has anyone tried a stronger mag spring to test this?

[sawatis]

Well I had installed aftermarket Glock springs with a heavier wire...supposed to be a 15% or so increase... I lopped off one coil as the were way too tight and these work good.  Now the new mags the folks at Remington sent me have 13 coils...and these have run without a hitch
John

[Zenshot]

Well I had installed aftermarket Glock springs with a heavier wire...supposed to be a 15% or so increase... I lopped off one coil as the were way too tight and these work good.  Now the new mags the folks at Remington sent me have 13 coils...and these have run without a hitch
John

I was thinking of ordering a +5% Wolff spring designed to fit a 7 round Kahr 9mm mag.  I don't know if the coils will fit in the R51 mag though.

[sawatis]

Don't know about the karr mags, but the glock 43 springs I got from Ghost Inc.  (3 for $7.95). Work very well. I clip off the bottom coil...it has a bit of a hook and is the 14th coil...the new factory ones Rem sent me had13.  The new mags they sent me also  had exactly parallel lips ....to the thousandth.
John

[Zenshot]

Just for comparison, I measured the width of the feed lips on my Ruger American 9mm mags.  They measure 0.335 front and back.  It looks like it fits the 9mm cartridge better than the R51 mags.

[LouisianaMan]

Don't know about the karr mags, but the glock 43 springs I got from Ghost Inc.  (3 for $7.95). Work very well. I clip off the bottom coil...it has a bit of a hook and is the 14th coil...the new factory ones Rem sent me had13.  The new mags they sent me also  had exactly parallel lips ....to the thousandth.
John

Hello,
I'm trying your suggestion with the Ghost Inc. Glock 43 magazine springs. Much appreciated! Having difficulties with the Ghost Inc. online ordering system, but will straighten that out with them, unless you know the secret handshake and can share it with me, lol.

Like many others, my R51 is a gun I want to like. I own an original Remington 51 in .380, and hoped to make the new R51 my EDC pistol. Unfortunately, my 90-year-old pistol works better than my 1-year-old gun!

I've put 750+ rounds through the gun, and still suffer nosedivesand various feeding problems. For the first time in 50 years of shooting, I experienced a phenomenon I never even imagined: the fired round ejected, the top round in the mag ejected, and the next round fed correctly and fired! How is that even possible? And it happened twice in that same magazine of ammunition, no less.

Sent it in for warranty service with 5 mags, including the two new ones Remington sent me loose, wrapped, in a mailer envelope. #5 was a spare I'd purchased. Got everything back from their contracted repair shop in Huntsville, with the notation that the pistol and mags had been "adjusted" and now functioned as designed.

Well, it still doesn't, and unfortunately I have no idea what supposed adjustments were carried out.

The thing I really don't understand is this: it is axiomatic that the magazine or belt is the #1 cause of feeding problems in semi-automatic and automatic weapons. So...why on earth would Remington field a magazine with so many problems? Bad welds in mag body, weak floorplate, weak and poorly installed springs, incorrect stacking geometry of the springs within the mag body. incorrectly designed follower, the infamously problematic bent lip, improper taper of the feed lips.

Maybe I'm missing something, but this accounts for every single part of the magazine assembly, some more than once!!

Any more advice is welcome. I've got about 12-15 videos pulled up on YouTube for study and analysis. Yes, time I'd prefer to spend doing more productive things than struggling to overcome design and manufacturing flaws. As others have noted already, this pistol is not reliable enough to carry, nor to sell, so it sits "awaiting repair." By me. Remington had three tries already: manufacture, 2 new mags for free, and a trip to their repair center.

Final gripe: the gun surprised me with its bulky dimensions. A little online research seems to verify what my eyes tell me: apparently it was designed to accommodate eventual .40 and .45 versions.

[R51Fan2017]

apparently it was designed to accommodate eventual .40 and .45 versions.

I can't wait for a .45 version! That would be awesome! Just as a side note to your original model 51, I saw one in person for the first time at a Gun Show yesterday. It was late 20s vintage, and was in near mint condition. The seller was asking $600 for it, should have gotten it. I just didn't have that kind of cash on me at the time. I told him that I had the updated version, the R51 and he laughed. He told me to buy his because it "worked" When I told him my R51 ran flawlessly, he seemed taken aback.

[Sirrus Rider]

exactly what mine were - pinched in the front of the lips, causes the bullet to pivot and nosedive.  Almost like someone read the specification backwards.

Good work on the pics.

Interesting..

My mags are as follows (From rear of mag to front in inches)

Mag 1: .358   .339  .343

Mag 2:  353   545   338

Mag3 :  .354  344  348

Mag 4:  368  354   340


They are consistent in inconsistency

[Zenshot]

Don't know about the karr mags, but the glock 43 springs I got from Ghost Inc.  (3 for $7.95). Work very well. I clip off the bottom coil...it has a bit of a hook and is the 14th coil...the new factory ones Rem sent me had13.  The new mags they sent me also  had exactly parallel lips ....to the thousandth.
John

I just tried installing the same springs (+15% Glock 43 springs).  So far so good running with 6 in the mag and 1 in the chamber.  Still tries to double feed after firing the first round  when I try 7 +1, but I've resigned to the R51 being a 6 + 1 gun until Remington redesigns the mags.

[R51Fan2017]

They are consistent in inconsistency

You have just summed up our experiences with this pistol in 5 words. It's a wonder of any of us have any hair left!

[pfm41]

My new R51 is fairly recent (Huntsville H0073xxR51) so I just checked the magazine lips.  The first was .340 at the rear and .336 at the front.  The second was .337 rear and .332 front.  They are very nearly parallel so I'm hoping to have good results.  I haven't shot it yet but hope to tomorrow and will post my results.  The tab on the front would scratch the bullet nose and cause the second round to hang up.  I polished them without changing the shape and now they never hang up.  I will be using Remington 115gr and 124gr ball ammo.

[Zenshot]

What did you use to polish the front of the magazine?