R51 Magazine lips

sawatis · May 31, 2018, 04:22:44 PM

Hey all,
I have found this post very enlightening...thanks to all that contributed! So...spec'd out the dimensions of my two factory mags that came with the purchase last June. After reading the various posts I expected weirdity...but this is amazing. Below are the dimensions I got

Mag dimensions
Mag 1. Mag 2
Lips (Rear) 0.361 0.359
(Front) 0.354 0.334

Width
(Top rear) 0.594 0.595
(Top front) 0.585 0.586 At follower groove
(Bottom rear) 0.590 0.590
(Bottom front) 0.584 0.585

Although the box dimensions are within a thou, the lip dimensions are radically different between these mags and of course the reverse taper y'all pointed out is there...extreme in Mag 2. The retainer tab is pronounced and is in need of some judicious grinding and polishing. No surprise, Mag 2 was a worse troublemaker than Mag 1...lots of nose diving and hang ups on the tab, especially with +P hollow points.
But, that's not the most remarkable find...the mag spring dare suffer to between the 2 mags. If this works an I can post a pic you can see the mag 2 spring is one coil less than Mag 1 and it was a really contorted profile. On top of that the Mag1 spring was in backwards not in line with the angle of the follower...was this what folks got with the gen 1 guns.

sawatis · May 31, 2018, 04:33:09 PM

Ok that table looked like hell
Let's try this

Mag dimensions

Lips (Rear) Mag 1 0.361
Mag 2 0.359
(Front) Mag 1. 0.354
Mag 2 0.334

Width
(Top rear) Mag 1 0.594
Mag 2 0.595
(Top front) Mag 1 0.585
Mag 2. 0.586
At follower groove

(Bottom rear) Mag1 0.590
Mag 2 0.590
(Bottom front) Mag 1 0.584
Mag 2. 0.585

sawatis · May 31, 2018, 04:58:08 PM

Got something for you...I saw on another thread (sorry couldn't find it again when I looked to quote it) y'all were talking about trying. Believe it was a SW spring in the mag... well that got me looking an I found the Glock 43 Mag spring is almost identical to the R51. See image
Got them from Ghost Inc
https://ghostinc.com/glock-43-plus-15-magazine-spring/
I picked up a 3 pack for $8. They are a plus 15% strength...has 14 coils
Only thing I did was trim a little bend from the bottom base coil that interfered with the magazine bottom. Fits fine, no problem loading 7 rounds and it seems to me that the rounds maintain the proper angle with the follower.
Loads fine cycling by hand...
So this might be an option...will try live once I get time to fix up the lips on the mags and can get to the range...will be a little while.
Hope this is of interest
John

R51Fan2017 · May 31, 2018, 06:27:55 PM

Quote from: sawatis on May 31, 2018, 04:58:08 PM
Got something for you...I saw on another thread (sorry couldn't find it again when I looked to quote it) y'all were talking about trying. Believe it was a SW spring in the mag... well that got me looking an I found the Glock 43 Mag spring is almost identical to the R51. See image
Got them from Ghost Inc
https://ghostinc.com/glock-43-plus-15-magazine-spring/
I picked up a 3 pack for $8. They are a plus 15% strength...has 14 coils
Only thing I did was trim a little bend from the bottom base coil that interfered with the magazine bottom. Fits fine, no problem loading 7 rounds and it seems to me that the rounds maintain the proper angle with the follower.
Loads fine cycling by hand...
So this might be an option...will try live once I get time to fix up the lips on the mags and can get to the range...will be a little while.
Hope this is of interest
John

John,

Thanks for the info on the Glock spring. Also, thanks for the table with the dimensions as well. Very useful. I may have to try a Glock spring with my problem children.

FlatEarther · June 01, 2018, 05:05:28 PM

John thanks for the post...
Given the spring situation, gotta wonder if either of those mags were "new" when you got them.
I was concerned only with the width of the mag at the ridge because that was the only dimension I wanted to adjust... Joe

sawatis · June 01, 2018, 05:54:05 PM

Yeah Joe I really wonder about the mag 2...the setup was all boxed up and wrapped so I wouldn't gave given it any thought...until I took the mags apart!
How did you determine there was a friction fit of the shells on the ridge through the length of the mag. I ran an inside mic down the length but it stayed t though greater than cartridge width... couldn't detect any friction there? I'm gonna adjust the lips and retainer shape but not vice the thickness and see if it plays well...and of course swap out the springs in both. I got 2 "new "mags coming from grabagun...we'll see, onl6 realized when they charged me tax 5hey were 10 miles away...will go visit.
John

sawatis · June 01, 2018, 05:55:58 PM

Oh, for 5hose interested... the Glock springs spec out 0,0433" dia stock and the rem springs are 0.0423...
J

FlatEarther · June 01, 2018, 08:41:29 PM

John I agree. Adjusting feed lips is easy and I think the best thing you can do to reduce nose dive jams.
Install good springs and give them a try.

I found the issue with brass vs the ridges when investigating friction as I mentioned in a previous post.
You will notice on a loaded mag the individual rounds tend to twist left or right.
I decided that under spring tension they twist until the brass binds between the points of the ridges.
Bind = friction... Not good IMHO.
IIRC I either pinned the follower out of the way or disassembled to insert a round to determine if it stopped twisting when the base of the brass touched the side or did it bind between the ridges. When I slid a round between the ridges to check this issue is when I found no clearance. Again i'm thinking no clearance = friction, not good. I'm sure the ridges are there to center the stack of rounds. But instead of a point it seems to me a 3/8 inch flat on each side would keep the ammo centered without the binding.
As always I may just be overthinking all this

... Joe

sawatis · June 02, 2018, 12:57:40 PM

Nope, that makes sense. I have noticed the rounds don't lay flat inside the mag too. I've jus been setting to the back and one side withe a smack and they seem to stay in line...whether they stay 5hay way in use...got me. We'll see how it goes.
Take care
John

R51Fan2017 · June 02, 2018, 02:20:17 PM

Quote from: sawatis on June 02, 2018, 12:57:40 PM
Nope, that makes sense. I have noticed the rounds don't lay flat inside the mag too. I've jus been setting to the back and one side withe a smack and they seem to stay in line...whether they stay 5hay way in use...got me. We'll see how it goes.
Take care
John

I'm not BSing you here. Try inserting a .45 round into your mag. Fits like a glove! LOL! Click on the pic to make it bigger. Thing is, Remington was trying to cut back on expenses. So they designed a mag body which would work with 9mm and .40 S&W as they plan to release a .40 version in the future.

sawatis · June 03, 2018, 08:59:40 AM

Interesting ... makes sense on their part...but if they want to go that route they need to lose the plastic base cap and follower...I've only put about 300 reds through mine and the drop surface of the follower shows scoring which I diligently polish off when cleaning. So the 45 makes a good go-no go gauge...nice!
Will use that approach. Thanks
John

sawatis · June 08, 2018, 04:57:44 PM

Well gang...I just got 2 mags in from grabagun...in the Rem packaging. Of course I did a quick check of lip measurements
One is 0.53 at the rear and 0.340 at the front; the other 0.351 at rear and 0.345 at front...definitely closer to parallel than the ones that came with the gun last year. Just because, I popped it open and checked the spring...

one has 12 coils...the other 13...what the hell!
Gonna leave em as is ant try em on the range before working on them...but why can't the get the springs to be the same...just don't get it...
John

sawatis · June 15, 2018, 04:15:57 PM

Well here's an update.. Remingtonreplied to the emai I sent and asked me to call em...I had filled them in specifically on th different springs that were in my various mags. Fellow I talked to was nice enough, but didn't know much about guns...he couldn't answer me on how many coils should be in 5he magazine spring and said he would have to check with engineers...but he is sending me two new mags and said that they would be checked out ...will not be surprised to get two new bubbl e packed mags that no one looked at! Regardless, at least we know how to fix em.
Have a good weekend folks
John

sawatis · July 01, 2018, 05:29:43 PM

Hey gang
So here is the latest.. Remington actually sent me two new mags...they weren't off the rack in blister packs...hand pulled. I checked the specs ..13 coils to the mag spring and what do you know...the lips are exactly 0.351. Front and back, perfectly parallel.
Went to the range on Tuesday and put a 100 rounds through each without a single hiccup...
So,maybe, just maybe they were listening when I was talking to them...
Also I did not modify the tab retaining the follower on these..shot all fmg that day, so I don't know if hp rounds will hang on them...next trip to the range I'll see.
Y'all take care and have a great 4th
John

David · July 07, 2018, 06:44:14 PM

swaits - Great report on the new mags - perfectly parallel!

I seriously thing that between REM and their contractor, the specifications on the magazine lips got reversed. Big Green has a history of screwing things like this up, they totally dorked up the chamber of the 6.8SPC too.

The good news is easy fix!. I'm going to try some of those glock springs. If they reduce the friction in the magazine while still having enough energy to force the last round into up into place, so much the better. We may have this thing solved.

Sorry about resurrecting a dead thread. Catching back up after some time away. Good work guys!