Rounds Nosediving in Magazine/Feed Failures

[paul7177]

After many instances of having a round nosedive, especially hollow points, in my magazines, usually the 2nd round, I feel I have solved my problem. My solution was to bend the inward tab at the front of the magazine straight and polish the inside of the tab. Yesterday I put well over two hundred rounds of 4 different brand hollow points thru my R51 without a single malfunction! I also shot about 50 rounds of ball ammunition without a failure.
I have gone from an unhappy R51 owner to a happy one!

[Rog54]

Hi Paul,
I just mentioned the nose diving in my "intro" post, then saw your post.
I was looking at that slight bend they have there.  What do you think it was intended for?  When I was reading reviews about this issue the first thing that came to mind was a "magazine problem".  I had seen it with the HiPoints as well.  As I write this I am looking at a full mag and I can see the second round tending down and a slight space between the front case edges of the first and second rounds.  Smacking the mag on the table to seat the rounds to the back of the mag seemed to position it better but there is still a slight gap between the front of the two cases.  So you bent it totally straight?
Rog

[1911SHOOTER]

Hi Paul,
I just mentioned the nose diving in my "intro" post, then saw your post.
I was looking at that slight bend they have there.  What do you think it was intended for?  When I was reading reviews about this issue the first thing that came to mind was a "magazine problem".  I had seen it with the HiPoints as well.  As I write this I am looking at a full mag and I can see the second round tending down and a slight space between the front case edges of the first and second rounds.  Smacking the mag on the table to seat the rounds to the back of the mag seemed to position it better but there is still a slight gap between the front of the two cases.  So you bent it totally straight?
Rog

Rog,
     I have not modified my Mags.  I just bought a new mag on line,and it works fine.  Since I started locking the slide back, inserting a full round and pulling the slide back and
letting it slam forward,  I have not had a single problem.  It seems that there are several different problems with this pistol.  I still cannot insert a full mag on a closed slide
and rack the slide.  So I quit trying, as long as the gun fires every time with my method. I love it!
Blackie 

[paul7177]

Hi Paul,
I just mentioned the nose diving in my "intro" post, then saw your post.
I was looking at that slight bend they have there.  What do you think it was intended for?  When I was reading reviews about this issue the first thing that came to mind was a "magazine problem".  I had seen it with the HiPoints as well.  As I write this I am looking at a full mag and I can see the second round tending down and a slight space between the front case edges of the first and second rounds.  Smacking the mag on the table to seat the rounds to the back of the mag seemed to position it better but there is still a slight gap between the front of the two cases.  So you bent it totally straight?
Rog

Rog, Yes I bent it totally straight and polished the inside to make sure there were no burrs.  Not sure why the bend is there, none of my other 9mm pistols have a bend there. When I talked to the Remington technical person, he acknowledged a potential magazine issue. Also, I never had a problem racking the slide with a full magazine, but I usually insert the magazine with the slide locked back.

Paul

[paul7177]

If anyone else with occasional nosedive problems/failure to feed issues tries this, please post your results. If it does not solve problem, one can always bend the tab back.

[Texas-Mark]

Not sure why the bend is there, none of my other 9mm pistols have a bend there.

The tab is there to make sure the second round is pushed to the rear of the mag as it rises to the top. Due to the short feed lips, if the round is too far forward, it could cause a failure by the round doing the opposite of a nosedive (nose up jam) and possibly even pop out of the mag.

[paul7177]

If that was the original intention of the tab, I found it to be a problem. Frequently hollow point ammunition hung up at that point, even ball ammunition at times.Also the feed lips on my other 9mm pistols are similar in length to the R51. They also do not have a tab that is bent in.

[Texas-Mark]

Any chance you have a picture of what the mags looked like before and after. I have not had a single nosedive (or any failure for that matter) regardless of ammo used, and now have several thousand rounds through mine. Not saying you aren't having a problem, I just like to get to the root cause of an issue. Why would one gun work fine and another not if all things are equal?

[1911SHOOTER]

Any chance you have a picture of what the mags looked like before and after. I have not had a single nosedive (or any failure for that matter) regardless of ammo used, and now have several thousand rounds through mine. Not saying you aren't having a problem, I just like to get to the root cause of an issue. Why would one gun work fine and another not if all things are equal?

Good Morning, Tex,
     I too am intrigued by the several different problems that seem to crop up with the R51.  For instance my R51, while shooting everything I put in it,  even what I call "Trash Rounds",
has no FTFs, FTEs and no FTFs. I actually ran out of 9 Mil shooting it. (Couple of thousand rounds)  Yet, if I close the slide, and attempt to rack a round from a full mag,
the slide will not come back more than halfway. If I remove the top cartridge in the mag,
the slide will rack with difficulty.   I have been leaving the mags loaded with 7 cartridges ever since I purchased the pistol,  the new mag I bought recently is loaded also.  Friday,
I took the R51 for a walk at the local range, and all three magazines performed as advertised.  Not a single SNAFU.  So, the R51 is still my backup carry piece, and I trust it
implicitly as I do my 1911s or my 1908 .380 ACP.  The 1908 was my backup until I started trusting the R51.   The 1908 now sits in a place of honour in my gun safe next to my
Makarov CZ82.  Both retired from active carry. 
     you hit the nail on the head when you asked,    "Why would one gun work fine and another not if all things are equal" ?
Equal being the operative word. Are they? Yet to be determined.  But I still love this little weapon. 
Blackie

[Texas-Mark]

you hit the nail on the head when you asked,    "Why would one gun work fine and another not if all things are equal" ?
Equal being the operative word. Are they? Yet to be determined.  But I still love this little weapon. 
Blackie

Yeah, that is why I was hoping to see some pictures. There has been talk about more than one version of the mags (for this release of the R51) so I would like to know if there is a difference in mags. If paul7177 could at least post a picture of his modification, then we could compare. Here is one of my mags that works fine.

This shows that front tab on whatever version I have.


This is just to simulate the second round rising and how the tab will help keep it pushed toward the rear of the mag


The compares the feed lips of the R51 (on left) to another 9mm gun I have. They are considerably shorter and thus any forward movement, especial with a shorter round would leave less grip on the case if it were to go too much forward.



This last picture illustrates my point. If that tab was not there and a shorter round (i.e. hollow point)  went straight up, it would only have half of the already short feed lips holding it. This could induce a malfunction of it's own. Point being, I think the engineers put it there for a reason. If it works being bent straight, great. But I will not mess with mine because they work fine as is.

[paul7177]

Any chance you have a picture of what the mags looked like before and after. I have not had a single nosedive (or any failure for that matter) regardless of ammo used, and now have several thousand rounds through mine. Not saying you aren't having a problem, I just like to get to the root cause of an issue. Why would one gun work fine and another not if all things are equal?

I tried to post a photo and could not get it to work.  Constantly received an error message?

[1911SHOOTER]

you hit the nail on the head when you asked,    "Why would one gun work fine and another not if all things are equal" ?
Equal being the operative word. Are they? Yet to be determined.  But I still love this little weapon. 
Blackie

Yeah, that is why I was hoping to see some pictures. There has been talk about more than one version of the mags (for this release of the R51) so I would like to know if there is a difference in mags. If paul7177 could at least post a picture of his modification, then we could compare. Here is one of my mags that works fine.

This shows that front tab on whatever version I have.


This is just to simulate the second round rising and how the tab will help keep it pushed toward the rear of the mag


The compares the feed lips of the R51 (on left) to another 9mm gun I have. They are considerably shorter and thus any forward movement, especial with a shorter round would leave less grip on the case if it were to go too much forward.



This last picture illustrates my point. If that tab was not there and a shorter round (i.e. hollow point)  went straight up, it would only have half of the already short feed lips holding it. This could induce a malfunction of it's own. Point being, I think the engineers put it there for a reason. If it works being bent straight, great. But I will not mess with mine because they work fine as is.

Tex,
     Ditto with my mags.  I have not modified mine.  They look the same as yours.  They all have the thicker base plate too.  When my new mag came in, I disassembled it to note the way the spring
set in the mag. and made sure my other two mag's springs were the same.  They were.  I will keep running my slide open when I load a fresh mag, and Don't care if it never
racks from a closed slide.

[paul7177]

I tried posting a photo and could not, where are the instructions for posting a photo? Thanks.

[valvestem]

I tried posting a photo and could not, where are the instructions for posting a photo? Thanks.

I believe you have to have the photo hosted somewhere else, i.e., Photobucket for example, and then use a link to post it here by using the Hyperlink icon up above the third smiley face at the top of the box you type a message in. (The world with a little page of while paper in the lower right.)

[Texas-Mark]

I tried to post a photo and could not get it to work.  Constantly received an error message?

See the second post in this thread for directions using tinypic

http://r51pistol.com/r51-general-discussion/crimson-trace/msg792/#msg792