Shootin' Low

[MainePlinker]

My first trip to the range, I took a couple boxes of mild loads to initiate the break-in process.

I started with 147gr Sierra TMJs over 5.1 gr Blue Dot.  at approx. 20 feet.  Starting at the target's red center as a point of aim,  I slow fired 5 rds using a soft gun case as a rest.  Only 1 hole appeared in the 25 yd pistol target (8" bull).  I was baffled til I noticed a few holes at the very bottom of the cardboard backing.   I moved my POA up about 3 inches and saw another 5 holes appear above the bottom of the paper, about 2-3" left of center.  Shifting the POA to the top of the black, I could get the rounds printing in the 8 ring @ 7 o'clock.  I gave up on that load after 40 rounds and ran the last 10 through my TZ-75, which put the rounds at point of aim.  Hmmm.

I broke out a box of the same bullets over 5.6 gr Blue Dot, hoping that the higher velocity might bring the point of impact up.  Not much difference was observed.  After 40 rounds I went back to the TZ-75.

I know that heavier bullets should impact higher than lighter ones, but maybe, just maybe, it would shoot better with factory loads.  On my way home I bought a 50 rd box each of Winchester White Box 115 gr and R-P 115 gr target loads. We'll see what happens.

I love the feel of the gun, the recoil is well controlled, the trigger reasonable, the grip safety seems to break sharply as I squeeze it. I expect that will smooth out with more shooting.  I want to like it. 

I bought it as a plinker, so my intent was to use plinking loads, not +P, but I've seen a few reports that the R51 seems to favor those hotter  rounds.  Well, I guess that's what handloading is all about? Though I prefer to run cast bullets no more than 1000 fps, and I have lost of cast bullets on hand.  Perhaps this gun is hungry for more pepper and jacketed or coated bullets?

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[lklawson]

Mine seems to run OK on low end hand-loads.  I'm using 4 gr, 1 grain up from the very bottom end, of Titegroup with 115 gr. HC bullets.  It did seem to like it better when I went up that 1 gr. from 3.9 gr., the bottom end.

I've been buying, not casting.  I've been running Coated bullets too.  You might try that.

I just bought 500 115 gr. coated bullets from Missouri Bullet Co. that I'll probably work a little bit hotter load on to see if my R51 likes those. 

As for POA vs POI, it seems as if Remington prefers to sight their pistols in with Military Center Hold / Combat Hold sight picture instead of the more traditional Target Hold sight picture. It's what all 3 of the R51's I've shot (owned) are sighted in with as well as the 1911R1.



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[valvestem]

Welcome to the forum, I'm in Southern Maine myself.  Thank you for the great range report on the R51. 

[MainePlinker]

MKLAWSON,  Thanks for the feedback. 

I don't cast either, I shoot mostly commercial cast bullets and I have a passel on hand, 115 gr & 124s.  Hunt Supply and Oregon Trail supplied most of them.  I've tried coated 185 gr SWCs from Bayou Bullets in my 1911 45 ACP and they seemed to shoot well, though I don't like the smell after each shot.  I'll have to get some samples for the 9, I guess.  That way I can use hotter loads without concern for leading the barrel.  I suspect that with the shorter barrel on the R51, velocity might not be that high, anyway, though if I want to use the indoor range, I have to keep mv below 1000 fps.

[MainePlinker]

Talked to my gun shop owner, Julian, of Kennebec Guns, about the low shooting problem.  his suggestion was to try lighter, faster loads as the gun is designed for +P fodder.  I hope to get to the range this weekend to see if he is right.

[noisemaker]

Every brand and weight shoot low on mine. I still have a enough failures to not carry it and the take down is far more difficult than any of the thirty pistols I own. Yet, I still want to like it. I have a Remington R1 and a RM380, both are excellent guns and neither one has ever failed. The company can build great guns.

[1911SHOOTER]

     My R51 eats anything I put in it. Yesterday, I shot Win USA Forged, Win White box, and
a bunch of Federal Value Pak, and Blazer Brass. I have not had a failure in the last month.
Still hate to try to clean it. That spring is a booger bear.
    I haven't noticed any difference in bullet drop between P and +P though. I shot steel targets
at 100 feet and hit about half. That was me, though.

[1911SHOOTER]

Mine seems to run OK on low end hand-loads.  I'm using 4 gr, 1 grain up from the very bottom end, of Titegroup with 115 gr. HC bullets.  It did seem to like it better when I went up that 1 gr. from 3.9 gr., the bottom end.

I've been buying, not casting.  I've been running Coated bullets too.  You might try that.

I just bought 500 115 gr. coated bullets from Missouri Bullet Co. that I'll probably work a little bit hotter load on to see if my R51 likes those. 

As for POA vs POI, it seems as if Remington prefers to sight their pistols in with Military Center Hold / Combat Hold sight picture instead of the more traditional Target Hold sight picture. It's what all 3 of the R51's I've shot (owned) are sighted in with as well as the 1911R1.



Peace favor your sword,


Kirk

Kirk,
     I also noted that my R51 shoots to Military center Hold. I took my 1911 R1 out and it also shoots to the Military center hold.
Mystery solved. Thanks.
Blackie

[Chuck S]

Center hold is the only practical hold.  Target hold requires an adjustable sight for every different range.  Handy for rifles at Camp Perry shooting known diameter bullseyes where the bullet will strike half that diameter above the hold point.  Maybe useful if attached by black bullseyes of specific diameter.

Using a target hold other than at Camp Perry is evidence is no knowledge of shooting whatsoever.  Get some training. 

-- Chuck

[1911SHOOTER]

Center hold is the only practical hold.  Target hold requires an adjustable sight for every different range.  Handy for rifles at Camp Perry shooting known diameter bullseyes where the bullet will strike half that diameter above the hold point.  Maybe useful if attached by black bullseyes of specific diameter.

Using a target hold other than at Camp Perry is evidence is no knowledge of shooting whatsoever.  Get some training. 

-- Chuck

Chuck S.
     If you are referring to my post, I only stated that the R51 seemed to be sighted to Military hold. I spent 20 years in the military and have been
shooting for almost 70 years. I think I have training. You need some training in manners. No room for Trolls on this blog!
Blackie

[Chuck S]

Were you recommending aiming at the bottom edge if a bullseye?   In this technique the bullet strikes half the diameter of the bullseye higher than point of aim.  Aiming at the bottom edge of a bullseye only works at a single specific known distance shooting against a single known diameter bullseye.

Anyone attempting to shoot in any other condition using this specific technique needs to learn how to shoot since the bullet will always hit higher than point of aim -- it's designed to. 

The Army hasn't shot at bullseyes in at least 50 years and shoots point of aim = point of impact.

-- Chuck

[GunFrogg]

Howdy All,
Thought I'd share my loads to add to the knowledge base. I been running 115 grain plated bullets (Range I use does not allow cast bullets), COL of 1.125 +/- .01 with 5.7gr of Hodgdon CFE and 4.5gr of Alliant BullsEye.

However, I was looking at my shooting notes and realized I have not shot my R51 past 15 yards. Seems I been missing out :-). I'll give 25 yards a try next range session.

I am impressed with 1911Shooter's 100 foot shots . . . that be a long way with such a small gun :-).

As far as the conversation on POA/POI, well, when using fixed sights ya have to find what the manufacture setup and live with it. Fortunately we have the options these days to easily make sights how we want them. I been noticing that some new sight designs are out so we can have low profile/snag adjustable tactical sights. I foresee one of those possibly in my near future.